Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 3rd, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Good morning, and welcome to our meeting.

As you're aware, we're the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration of the House of Commons. We've been mandated to hold hearings on three very important matters: temporary and undocumented workers, immigration consultants, and Iraqi refugees.

We're going to meet in just about all the provinces. We have 52 panels that will be appearing before us. Already we've met in Vancouver, Edmonton, and Moose Jaw, and here we are now in Winnipeg.

Our committee is made up of representatives from all parties in the House of Commons, and we have a couple of people who can't be here today because they had duties back in the House of Commons.

However, we will be hearing testimony from witnesses all across the country on these matters, and at the end of it all, we will compile a report and make recommendations to the minister and to the House of Commons based on what we're hearing.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses here this morning. We have, from the Manitoba Interfaith Immigration Council, Martin M. Dolin, who is the executive director; and from the Iraqi International Initiative, Hani Al-Ubeady.

The way we work it, of course, is that you have an opportunity to make an opening statement. So I'll leave it to you.

[Martin Dolin, Executive Director, Manitoba Interfaith Immigration Council (Welcome Place)]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to welcome all the committee members to Winnipeg. You brought some nice weather with you, and we appreciate it.

We want to talk about the situation in Iraq and why we feel that Canada is really not taking its responsibilities. We would hope the committee would look a little more carefully at what is going on in Iraq.

Three momentous events have taken place in the last few days. One is that it's the fifth anniversary of the war in Iraq; two, the American casualties have reached 4,000; three, the Iraqi civilian casualties that can be counted have reached 90,000. These numbers are probably one-tenth of the injuries and morbidity, rather than just deaths, happening in that country.

The interesting thing is, yesterday's New York Times reported that the number of civilian casualties in March had gone up 43% from casualties in February. Basically, the idea that Iraq is becoming a safer place seems to be belied by the facts.

Recently, more than a million Iraqis have crossed the border into Syria, and more than a million have crossed the border into Jordan. The Syrians, it is my understanding, and the Jordanians have now closed the borders. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees is having a terrible time trying to screen the refugees in both these places.

Another thing they're finding, from my reports, from people I talk to in UNHCR, is that one in nine people who were being screened in Syria were found to have cancer and various kinds of leukemia, etc., which one could guess—and people in UNHCR are guessing—is attributable to depleted uranium bullets being used in Iraq.

The point I'm trying to make is that Iraq is not a safe place to return to. People in the Iraqi community here are very concerned about their relatives. One of the things that is happening is, because of the lawlessness in the country and the fact that there is no real government in control—the al-Maliki government is not in control, as a matter of fact—that Iraq has declined to a state worse than Yugoslavia was.

When Tito was in Yugoslavia, you had a unified nation, where Serbs, Bosnians, and Croatians all lived together and somehow managed. Prior to the U.S. invasion, you had a secular dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, where Shias, Sunnis, Christians, and the few Jews who were left managed to remain in that country and stay together. Since the Saddam dictatorship was overthrown and Saddam was killed, the country has broken into sectarian divisions, where it seems the Sunnis are being supported by the Americans and the al-Maliki government, and the Shia majority is being supported by the Mahdi army and by various other religious fanatics. You have a country in a different—and worse, probably—situation from Yugoslavia's. With Yugoslavia, at least you had some definitive borders. What you have in Iraq is the same kind of sectarian situation, but without any defined borders and without any control.

The people who have gone to Syria and to Jordan are now in a position where the Syrian government, it's my understanding, is telling people they can stay for six months. Then they have to pay to renew; otherwise they go back. They have no place to go back to. You have, basically, the Kurdish north, which is reasonably safe. You then have situations in Baghdad that are an absolute disaster, not only militarily, but because of the criminal element, kidnappings, etc.

One of the things that has also happened, as happens in many of these cases, is that the intelligensia—the college professors, the professionals—are the ones being targeted by both the sectarian militias and by the criminal elements, with kidnapping, etc., and they are the ones who very often have fled into Jordan and Syria. And the diaspora will continue.

To my understanding, the situation in Canada is that the government has said that Canada has a quota of 700. That is what Canada will take. The Iraqi community in Canada is appalled, and I think any Canadian who has any sense of morality should be appalled, by the minuscule number of 700. There are millions out there.

Canada has a role. Canada can take a role. I think the political decision...because the Americans are trying to convince the world--falsely--that the situation is turning around, that it's getting better, that it's going to be safe for people to return to Iraq. I think the facts belie that. The reality is that Canada should be doing more.

One thing Canada should be doing, very simply, is at least expediting the reuniting of families where there are Iraqi Canadians in this country. Throughout this country, people like Hani should be able to be reunited with their family members. We should expedite brothers and sisters, etc., being able to come to Canada rather than having them go through the private sponsorship program.

I would hope that the committee would recommend to the government the following: one, increase the quota; two, allow the Iraqi Canadian community in Canada to have some say and some input into who gets in; three, increase the resources in Damascus considerably to be able to expedite the movement of people who are now facing incredibly harsh situations in Syria and Jordan; and four, assist the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees with funds, and possibly even the seconding of staff, to be able to allow them to process the people more quickly, to be able to feed the people who are coming across the border, and also now to be able to look at the internally displaced within Iraq who are being rejected at the borders of Syria and Jordan and are being forced to stay in Iraq, to make it a country where you can have protection from inland displacement.

I would strongly urge the committee to give serious consideration to the situation there. Canada can take a role, and we believe Canada should take a role. It would be the moral thing to do. It would be the right thing to do. Also, the Iraqi Canadians in this country would bless this government and this country if it took a more expeditious role in protecting their relatives.

Thank you very much for allowing me this time. I would be open to any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Dolin.

I don't know if you have any statements you want to make, Mr. Al-Ubeady. If not, we'll go to questions. It's up to you. If you have any opening statements, please feel free to make them.

[Hani Al-Ubeady, Iraq International Initiative, As an Individual]

I would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to be here and to share with you our frustrations.

As an Iraqi Canadian, I have a personal story to tell you. My cousin, a female lawyer, left Iraq under the threat of the militias and the civil war taking place in Iraq, as you may know. She went to Jordan hoping that she could come to Canada, but she failed. She could stay there just for two days. As you may know, there are no settlement programs as we have here. There was no guidance, no direction on where she could go and to whom she could speak. But that's just a personal story that I'm sharing with you.

We as Iraqis would like the Canadian government to exercise some political pressure on the Iraqi and American governments to take full responsibility for the displaced Iraqi people by allocating some of Iraq's oil revenue to the basic needs of the displaced persons--internally and outside, such as Syria and Jordan--as suggested by the Iraq International Initiative.

As well, we would like the Canadian government to help the host countries with funds and expedite the process of immigration, especially for the individuals who have families here, as Martin stated earlier.

Most of the things I was going to say have been mentioned by Martin. I would love to hear your questions, and hopefully I can answer them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Al-Ubeady.

Mr. Telegdi, do you have any questions you want to direct to these gentlemen?

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much. I really appreciate your being in front of this committee, and of course, welcome.

Mr. Dolin, we have enjoyed very much having your son in front of us as well, as always. I remember the first time we met back here quite a few years ago. There you were presenting and your son was sitting here as our very able researcher. It is always good to see you.

The Iraqi situation is a real disaster. I agree with you. It is worse than the former Yugoslavia, but the cleansing is the same.

I had a staff member for quite a few years, and he left me, as I couldn't pay enough. But when we were going through the crisis and they were hunting for Chemical Ali, they didn't get Chemical Ali, but they wiped out nine members of his family who were in a bunker; these were bunker-buster bombs.

I agree totally with your presentation, and I hope we can underline the urgency in the report we do.

The question I have is this. We have gone through a situation where this committee pushed hard and finally we're getting the leftover Vietnamese refugees, who are coming into the country from the Philippines. They were stuck there. What I am wondering about is to what extent can the Iraqi community be involved in sponsorship, or get other groups to be involved in sponsorship, to be able to increase the numbers to show there is support out there. When we did the Vietnamese boat people, a lot of folks across Canada came in as sponsors. I'm just wondering if you could address that.

[Hani Al-Ubeady]

We have a sponsorship group here from the Iraqi community. The only thing is that the period of time the process takes generates frustration for the people...and the numbers of people they can sponsor, of course. Yes, they are willing and they are hopeful that this process will take place and be expedited, and they are willing to do it any time the government will allow.

[Martin Dolin]

By the way, I'd just like to comment that my son enjoyed his five years with the committee too, so I think there is a mutual love relationship here. Even though he is now with the IRB, I think he misses the committee. There are interesting things going on here all the time.

The Manitoba Interfaith Immigration Council is the largest private sponsor in Canada, and we have about 50 constituent groups. We sponsor over 100 people a month. What Hani is saying is that one of the problems is that you need to expedite it. They will have to come through Damascus. It is now taking three to four years. People will not live that long to be able to go through that process. One of the problems has always been that government-sponsored refugees can only be considered if they are referred by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. It has always bothered me that we, and our immigration people, insist on re-interviewing the people who have already been interviewed on the same criteria by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. It slows up the process. It delays, and it strikes me that in most cases it is redundant.

What I would suspect, if the Iraqi community is willing to do this, is expediting it--have the UNHCR dossiers there, do a paper screening, and do the medical and the security check without the necessity for re-interviewing, unless there is something missing in the dossier so there is a need for re-interviewing. It strikes me that this is a very inefficient way of doing things.

There is the other possibility of having designated classes again, as we did with the eastern Europeans, but the key element, as Hani points out, is that the situation is urgent. The situation is dangerous for the people. The host governments in both Syria and Jordan are becoming less and less welcoming. The necessity is for speed, expeditiousness, and for the committee to recommend to the government, to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, some expedited way of dealing with the people, particularly those who have relatives here in Canada.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

If I can just touch on that, what is really important is that we have the model if we want to do it, if we make the decision to do it, and if we want to move quickly, we can move very quickly. With the refugee class that I came with, the government moved very quickly. They moved 40,000 Hungarians into the country in less than a year. It was just amazing, and the bulk of them were moved in six months. So if the will is there, then there is a way.

The other thing we have to underline and be very cognizant of is that we really need to help stabilize that region. The refugee problem is really destabilizing the whole Middle East. Everyone has an interest in coming to grips with a peaceful Middle East.

We'll make a recommendation.

I want to thank you very much for appearing before us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

The situation in Iraq is indeed a big concern. Some people will come before the committee or will come and see us, like me, the Citizenship and Immigration critic for the Bloc québécois, or other MPs, to plead for their country of origin. They will tell us that in Haiti, in Sri Lanka or in a number of other countries, the situation is extremely troubling.

You want us to fast-track the immigration process for refugees. We have been told that the processing times of applications are extremely frustrating, and I agree. However, this is a general problem. You know very well that Iraqi refugees are not the only ones facing these difficulties. Waiting times are absolutely insane because of the neglect and turpitude of the government.

During our hearings about to Iraqi refugees, some witnesses asked us if there is a special program or preferential treatment for members of the Iraqi community.

What will you answer to those who will tell you that there is absolutely no reason to give any preferential or faster treatment to Iraqi people since that would necessarily be at the expense of other refugees from other countries?

[Martin Dolin]

Very simply, what I would tell people is that the situation in Iraq is unique. There seems to be a government policy, which is re-articulated in Bill C-50, that the way to control the needs of refugees is to put caps on the numbers rather than increase the ability to deal with refugees, which to me is an outrage.

Canada won the Nansen Medal back in 1976. The Canadian people won the medal for their ability and their willingness to welcome refugees to Canada.

Putting lids on the number of refugees is going back to the “none is too many” scenario of the late 1930s to keep the Jews out, to keep them from coming to Canada to make refugee claims. Once again, it seems to be a “keep them out, and if they get here kick them out” scenario of the department that applies.

The situation in Iraq is somewhat unique. I don't think you can compare Iraq to Haiti or Sri Lanka. There is a war going on, an illegal war that was not sanctioned by Canada or the UN. There are millions of people who have been forced out of their country because of the breakdown of the state. Whatever it was before, there is nothing remaining, and there is a vacuum there.

The reality is that anybody who picks up a newspaper can understand the difference between what's going on in Iraq and what's going on in other places in the world. But also, to the question, “Why should we take these over any others?”, the answer I would give is, “We shouldn't.”

The fact is, when the department stops putting caps on it and the minister starts recognizing that you need to put the resources in there to process people quickly and expeditiously in all the posts around the world.... According to our policies, our laws, our humaneness, putting limits on refugees coming to Canada, putting lids on this, is not the response. The response is to put more resources into being able to do what we, as Canadians, want to do as peacekeepers and humanitarians.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

There is a very broad consensus that the waiting times are much too long and that the way this government and previous governments have managed the refugees issue has been pathetic. These long waiting times did not appear suddenly over the past two years.

I am playing devil's advocate here because I know very well that the situation in Iraq is extremely difficult. However, you must be aware that all over Canada there are many refugees who all think that their situation is a matter of life and death and is extremely difficult. I want you to know that we all agree that those cases should be dealt with in a much more expeditious manner.

I have another concern. You have referred to many displaced persons in Iraq, and their number is much higher than what Canada could ever accept as refugees. Those people cannot and do not all want to come to Canada.

Does Canada have a role to play in helping displaced people within a country or in neighboring countries? The cost might be the same and it might be much more effective to help the Iraqi people.

[Hani Al-Ubeady]

We have an initiative called the Iraqi International Initiative. This initiative is asking the world, and citizens of the world, including governments such as the Canadian government, to support it.

This initiative is to pressure the Iraqi government, the president of the Iraqi government, to allocate some of Iraq's oil revenue and employ it for the basic needs of the Iraqis in the region, in Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and other countries. That will give a reasonable, practical solution. We realize that Canada or other countries cannot take millions of Iraqis who are in the region.

By doing this, it will help the Iraqis to stay where they are, and it will deal with the phenomenon of this big migration or displacement. At the same time, the people will have something to meet their basic needs. Since Iraq is very rich with oil, a rich country—if there is anything left there, because it's being looted on a regular basis—we're hoping that governments like Canada's and others will pressure the Iraqi government and get it to recognize this problem as its problem, because these are its citizens.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Was it two million you mentioned who have left Iraq?

[Martin Dolin]

There are over two million: one million have crossed into Syria and over one million have crossed into Jordan. Those numbers were increasing daily. But now that the Syrians and the Jordanians have closed the border and there are six-month certificates that have to be renewed, they're pushing people back. There is an enormous state of flux. There are at least two million people who would be, by UN definition, considered refugees, which means persecuted, with reasonable fear of persecution, outside their country of origin.

There are probably another two million or two and a half million who've been displaced within Iraq, many of whom have gone to the more stable region in the north. People have gone to Egypt and places like that. The situation is serious and it's not getting better. It is getting worse, if anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I know the UNHCR recommended at one point that we take 500 people. That was back about a year or so ago, was it? Have you tracked any of these people to find out where they are, if we did take them? What's the situation on them? I keep hearing the number 500, but I don't—

[Martin Dolin]

My understanding is that the target for this year is 700. That is for all of Canada. This is an abysmally low target, considering the needs and the urgency of the situation.

It is my feeling and my opinion that this is political. The fact is, the Americans and the Bush government keep saying the situation is getting better since the surge. By recognizing the fact that they're refugees and increasing the numbers, it would be an embarrassment to the government, because it would be Canada basically telling the Americans that it's really not working, which is the fact on the ground.

I think Canada should be taking an independent stance to say, “Look, we're concerned about the refugees, people who cannot return safely to their homes”, or whatever. Whether they're Shi'ites who come from a Sunni area or Sunnis who come from a Shia area, where they may have been safe before, they're not going to be safe now. The reality is that I think Canada has to step up to the plate and exercise its sovereignty and say, “We make our own decisions in this country, and we are here to help refugees who need help.” That number—500—is ridiculous. It is much too low.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I would imagine it's difficult for you to put a number on what Canada should be taking—

[Martin Dolin]

Let me suggest that what Hani is saying is if Canada supported oil for support and supported increasing the amount it gives to UNHCR to provide people with stability, it would allow us to process people on a priority basis, particularly.... They could remain in Syria if they had three square meals a day and a roof over their heads and UN protection. If they had that, then Canada could increase its ability to process, it could prioritize, and it could also do what needs to be done to reunite families over there who have relatives here in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's a terrible situation.

Nina, you have a question. Then I'll go back to Mr. Carrier after you.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

First, I would like to thank you both for coming here. Thank you for your time and your presentations.

It's a very sad situation wherever these refugees are, whether it's in Iraq or Africa or Vietnam. I know how hard it is for people in a war-torn country. My family and I lived in Africa, in a country called Liberia, so I know what it is all about.

I've got a couple of questions. Are any other countries accepting these Iraqi refugees?

[Martin Dolin]

My understanding is the British have taken 2,000 Iraqi refugees, as did the Americans, and it was only a bill through Congress that.... They were taking people who worked directly for them, as interpreters or bodyguards, etc.

This is not being prioritized on the need or the danger of refugees. The people who work for the occupying forces are now being considered the ones who have priority, because, to put it mildly, if they go back to the civilian situation in Iraq they're dead meat. They are seen as collaborators with the occupiers.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How many Iraqi refugees have come here to date?

[Martin Dolin]

I wouldn't know. You could check with CIC on that. Very few. We get all the government-sponsored refugees who arrive here in Manitoba. I think we had about 631 arrive last year. They were mainly from Congo, from Northern Burma, etc. There were very few Iraqis.

In spite of the situation worsening in Iraq, we still don't see the flow. We would see it on the ground if the government were sponsoring. We hope after the committee makes its recommendations to the minister that we will see an increase in the flow from Iraq.