Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 10th, 2008

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

I have to stop you, because Mr. Carrier's time ran out a long time ago. Perhaps other members will want you to continue.

Ms. Chow, you have the floor.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I have a slightly different line. I first got involved in politics in 1979 during the time of the so-called boat people, the Vietnamese refugees. I lobbied the Canadian government to allow private sponsorship to establish a big program to bring in as many refugees as possible. I was working with churches and community groups at that time.

In 1980-81 and in the next few years, massive numbers--tens of thousands--of Vietnamese boat people came to Canada. I worked on a very successful campaign with Howard Adelman of Operation Lifeline, etc.

Just a bit of history.

Of course they settled in Canada very well. It's a great success story, and I have no doubt the Iraqi refugees, if we have such a program again, will settle well, because they're well educated and they would have the drive to do well in Canada. I have no doubt about that.

Having said that, I know how it worked very well before. There was a tremendous amount of political will at that time to make it happen, and the community and the government came together.

What numbers do you think would be appropriate? In the last few years it's been 300, 400, 800--it has been pathetically small. The recent announcements say 2,000--still very small. One percent, I think, of the 2.2 million people who are there would be 20,000. That's my math.

Do you have a ballpark figure on how it would work? Certainly there is the sponsoring of relatives, expanding the family class so that uncles, aunts, brothers, and sisters can come. How would you envision this? First, perhaps you can give me a number, a ballpark figure of what you think would be appropriate.

Second, how do you think such a program would work? Is it mirroring what we did at the time of the Vietnamese boat people or something different? How do you envision it happening? If you were this committee, what would you recommend in a concrete way?

[Hala Alobaidi]

In terms of exact numbers, that's why I went to Statistics Canada--to give you numbers--but I couldn't, because when I saw the numbers, they were not good numbers.

But if we look at Statistics Canada and talk about Montreal only and say there are 1,000 Iraqi people living in Montreal, most of them--I wouldn't say all of them--have a minimum of one family member to come here, so we're talking about 2,000 people if everyone brings one person only--a mother, a father, a sister. I'm not talking about the family. That's it; we need only 2,000 in Montreal, and you are talking about 29,000.

I'm not asking Canada to accept all these people; it's impossible. But--

[An hon. member]

No, it's not impossible.

[Hala Alobaidi]

Really? That's good. It's good to hear that, because people are desperate. Every day I see it, especially now when we have had the Canadian coalition group. They have 50 churches sponsoring every year, they told us. They came to present, and since then we receive calls every day. They say, “We would like to sponsor a family. What can we do? What do you need from us?”

So 50 church people were.... We applied only for five Iraqis for the time being, and we have a lot. I don't promise anybody. I don't encourage them, because we don't want to lose our credibility as a community centre, but you have problems putting the Iraqis together because the political situation is affecting us. We are talking here about Christian and Muslim. My family is half and half: my mother is Christian Armenian and my father is Muslim. The Iraqis are like that; we are a mixture of Shia and Sunni. We don't have one label. We are Iraqis.

I really would like to have credibility for our organization, because there isn't an Iraqi.... Before, we couldn't have an organization. There was no concept of non-profit, and now there is a concept of non-profit, and we'd like them to group. We'd have to promise them, but I would not like to promise them before I know there is a commitment from the government, and that we can do it, and that they are willing.

They are good people. They have been here for 25 years. They are well established and they are even willing to hire their people when they come in. I have seen many Iraqi refugees here who were immediately taken by the Iraqi groups and given jobs. The minute they have their work permit, they are hired, so the willingness is there. I can assure you that if not all of the 2,000 would do that, 50% of them would.

But we need a process that is faster. I have a friend in Toronto whose father died in the process of waiting. He had to go to pick up his mother, who is very old, and it took a while. He went between Syria and Jordan, and there was no sympathy. He was so mad because of that.

We need to make sure that the process is good and that people won't spend lots of money. Many of them are willing to sponsor their family to leave Iraq, but for how long? How many houses can they support?

I can speak for Montreal. There is a willingness. Many families are willing to sponsor their family, but the process and the promises....

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Well, in the situation of the Vietnamese boat people, a lot of churches sponsored people and families. Five people coming together can sponsor one person. The sponsorship is for one year; that's the private side. The government sponsorship is different.

Then afterwards there were groups to assist the Vietnamese boat people, the refugees, to adapt to Canada, and most of them adapted really well. There are models of how that would happen.

I notice you still haven't answered my question about a ballpark number as to what you think would be appropriate. I know there is shortening the wait list, of course, and that requires more staff, more support, and more target numbers, but what would be a ballpark number?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Rapidement, quickly.

[Mowafaq Thomas]

If I may interject in that respect, of course not everybody wants to come to Canada.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Of course.

[Mowafaq Thomas]

We will take those people who are in true danger, people who are vulnerable, people whose lives are in danger, and people who are willing to come and assimilate into the society and become Canadians. If somebody wants to immigrate, we are not going to just bring that person. No, this is not the issue. The issue is people who are in danger and who are willing to come and assimilate into society.

The number in my mind is that around 60,000 people will come over a three-year period, so it would be 20,000 people every year. That is what I believe is the appropriate number.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

I am going to have to stop you. Thank you very much for your answer.

Before moving on to Mr. Harvey, I have to tell you that there are problems with the interpretation because of the interference from your BlackBerrys. So I would ask you to keep them turned off and as far away as possible from the mikes.

Mr. Harvey, you have seven minutes.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Ms. Alobaidi, thank you very much for acting as a volunteer to help your colleagues from Iraq, to help them to act as Canadian citizens here in Montreal. Thank you very much. I know sometimes it can be very difficult. I can't imagine. Thank you.

You are talking about Iraq, but there are also Kenya, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Congo and Haiti. There are also several other countries where the people are experiencing horrors and where they, somewhat like you, are afraid for their families and their fellow citizens. I understand this very well.

It is also not easy for the government. I find it ironic that my Liberal colleagues, who did nothing after 13 years in power, seem to be able to solve the problems and force the government to solve them now that they're in opposition. I am not here to talk, I am here to work with you, with my colleagues, to try to improve make progress on this issue. We understand the situation clearly. Perhaps my colleagues will continue to ask questions or put pressure on us to do the work they didn't do.

You made your presentations and right at the end you said that you calculate that there are about 60,000 Iraqi refugees who might come to Canada over the next thee years, that is, about 20,000 refugees a year. They are all refugees, but are there some who should be given priority? How do you see this issue? How do we select those 20,000 refugees?

Mr. Thomas.

[Mowafaq Thomas]

You are asking about the criteria. I'm not really fully familiar with immigration law in this country. It's only a proposal I make, having known the situation, when I propose 20,000 a year. I am not aware of the criteria. Of course, as you mentioned, the Liberals and you people, the Conservatives.... I look at it as Canada. I don't look at it as being Canadian; I look at it as Canada, and we have to do something together. You probably have to do it in a bipartisan way, or through the Conservative Party. I don't know how to do it.

But that's the issue I'm facing today, with the suffering of my people.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Thomas, I am going to tell you something. Regardless of who is in government, Liberal or Conservative, it isn't a Liberal law or a Conservative law, it is the law of Canada governing immigration. So if someone tries to make you think it's the Liberals, that's a mistake, if they try to make you think it's the Conservatives, that's a mistake. It's the law of Canada. The party in power has nothing to do with it, it's the law of Canada on immigration.

I am going to ask you this question because in Canada, as you know, we have significant labour shortages. Admitting an immigrant, someone who comes from another country, is one thing, but once he or she arrives here, we have to be able to get the person to work and the person must be capable of taking action, of moving ahead. If we just get the person out of a camp and put him or her in another camp in Canada, we haven't accomplished much. We have to be sure that the person is capable of interacting with Canadians, of finding a job and putting his or her skills to work.

How do you see that?

[Mowafaq Thomas]

This is a well-known fact. When somebody comes to Canada or emigrates to anywhere else in the world, they have to join the labour force of that country and contribute to the well-being of that country, and they have to assimilate with that country--to the laws, regulations, and the life of that country. This is a fact that everybody knows. Nobody will accept anybody unless there is a need. It's the law of supply and demand.

When these Iraqis come, they will definitely come with a certain background. They will come with qualifications. Some of them are doctors, some of them are teachers, and some of them are nurses. With those qualifications, all they need is to assimilate with the country, and this is the whole objective of taking people into Canada. It's the labour force that you need. Yes, of course there is a humanitarian issue, for which Canadians are on top of the list because they sense it more than anybody else. I would imagine this is because of their background or because of their nature, maybe. But it's all these things together. It is true, sir, that these people will come and contribute to the well-being of this country.

Now, you say there is suffering elsewhere in the world. This is true. As long as there is human nature, we will be fighting each other, unfortunately, and there will be suffering and refugees. The human population is increasing, and there will be a shortages of this and shortages of that. There will be local wars. That situation will continue.

Five years ago this situation did not exist, but now because of the...I will call it invasion, it has happened. Now we are facing a problem. It's a tragic problem.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much.

We are now going to proceed with a second round of exactly three minutes, to keep to our schedule.

Mr. Telegdi.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Let me welcome Mr. Harvey to the committee. I haven't seen him before. I've been on this committee for 10 years.

He raised an interesting issue. He says that the Liberals haven't done anything. Let me just say that one of the things the Liberals did do was resolve a huge crisis that existed in IRB, with the number of people on the backlog. We had it down to a record low of 20,000 people on the backlog and we had 10 vacancies on the 160-member board.

This government has created a crisis on the board. There are 58 vacancies. The backlog right now is at a record high. From the 20,000 we had it down to, it's at 42,300, and it's projected to be going to 62,300, according to the IRB.

So I thought we made a major accomplishment. We depoliticized the system, and the Conservatives came along and totally destroyed it and politicized the system. Refugee stuff should not be partisan. I agree with you. It should be Canadian. But unfortunately, the mindset of the neo-conservatives is really at the forefront on this issue. I raise that because I think that's a very important point to make.

Mr. Harvey, welcome to the committee, but please do not invent information, and maybe you want to reflect on what the information is.

I had a staff member who worked with me for a long time. His name is Mohamed Hamoodi. He had nine members of his family wiped out when they were looking for Chemical Ali. They thought they were bombing Chemical Ali, but they bombed a bunker, with bunker buster bombs, where his family was taking shelter.

The horrors of what has happened to Iraq, which was the cradle of civilization, are just unbelievable. We have to push and push hard. We need big numbers of refugees coming in, because not only are we helping the immediate situation there, but we are also helping the situation in the Middle East. The Iraqi refugee problem is unsettling the whole region.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]...IRB, the refugee appeal division, which we were going to put in when we got the backlog down, and the Conservatives have now driven it up from 20,000 to 60,000. Shame.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you.

Mr. Carrier, you have three brief minutes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have followed the committee since the beginning of last week, starting in Vancouver, to here. I have seen the full scope of the regulations and the improvements that have to be made to the Immigration Act. Some of them have been addressed, concerning temporary workers, and there are complex situations to be resolved, so much so that we in the Bloc Québécois are wondering whether this issue should be dealt with in a specific bill, after serious study by the government, which is currently formed by the Conservatives.

I am surprised at the statement by a new member of the committee this morning, when he came in and said that his party wants to resolve the situation. His government wants to resolve immigration by adding a clause at the end of a bill concerning the budget. That seems immoral and hypocritical to me, on the part of a government.

I am now going to ask Mr. Thomas a question about his religion, whose followers are being persecuted in his country.

Do you think that you will be better able to settle here if we accept more refugees who belong to your religion? Is the settlement situation here sufficiently favourable to promote immigration or accept more refugees from your religious group who could adapt to Canada?

[Mowafaq Thomas]

Iraqis as a whole are very adaptable people, and for the Christians in particular, their religion has an impact on them of making them even more adaptable. Integration into the society for Iraqis is not difficult at all. Of course there is some hardship. There is nothing easy in this life, but if there is a will, people will go for it.

If you look at the Iraqi immigrants who came to this country, all of them were able to assimilate very quickly into the society, integrate easily, whether they were Muslims or Christians. Of course, for the Christians it's easier, definitely. I wouldn't call it a Christian society but it's a Christian atmosphere. Let's call it an atmosphere. The atmosphere is there. When it's Christmas, they celebrate Christmas and they celebrate it together. When it's Easter, they celebrate it together. So there is an atmosphere for that, but it doesn't mean that Canada is a Christian country.

So assimilation will not be difficult. Even the churches are willing to play their part in helping these people. It's a humanitarian issue. It's not really that you want to bring somebody just for the sake of bringing somebody for a better life, for instance; it's a case of somebody whose life is in danger, somebody who is feeling his life is threatened.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you, Mr. Thomas. I want to keep three minutes for Mr. Harvey, in conclusion.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Yes, once again, it is quite ironic to hear my Liberal colleague boasting about his achievements. When they came to power, there were 50,000 people on the waiting list, and they grew that number to 800,000. If that's success, I'll pass on their kind of success.

As well, the law making an amendment seems to obfuscate it. At present, the law makes it a function of... It is somewhat like at the butcher shop: you take a number and you wait for it to come up. The bill we are proposing is designed to allow someone who deserves to be admitted faster, based on certain priorities, to be taken, for example someone in your situation, to select that person and place him or her at the top of the list.

What is important is that we be capable of analyzing, of seeing things as they are in a situation like the one in Iraq, of saying that there is a priority in Iraq, of taking groups and giving them priority, rather than waiting six or seven or eight years before being able to consider the applications by the people in the group. That is one of the priorities we are adopting. We are aware of, we are sensitive to your applications and we are making sure we will be able to give you a better result. The way things are being processed at present, by 2012 we will be saying that the waiting time will be about 10 years before we can process an immigration application, a refugee claim here in Canada. In 10 years, if it is an application... At that point we would be...

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Just a minute, please.

Yes, Mr. Telegdi.