Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 10th, 2008

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I would invite you to meet with Patrice, my assistant, after the meeting. We will look at your case properly. I am not making any promises, but...

[Félicien Ngankoy]

Thank you.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Ms. Gravel, we were talking about the Labour Code earlier. We were saying that these people might be covered by Quebec's Charter of human rights and freedoms and that they therefore came under the CSST. Here, this is a standing committee, but at the Canadian level. Is the purpose of your submissions here today to ask Canada to oversee or supervise what is done in Quebec? I would like to understand.

[Sylvie Gravel]

I did not intend to represent anyone or anything when I came here. I answered a call last Friday asking me to come and speak about occupational health and safety. I am not representing any institution or government; I am merely presenting the results of my research, that is all.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Okay. It is always a little difficult when we are dealing with somewhat divided jurisdictions. Picking the right approach to take in applying one particular thing becomes relatively complex. That is why I wanted to know what you are proposing. You have raised a number of problems and I would have liked you to talk more about solutions than about problems. You know who should be looking after something, but you haven't said it. You said that it would have to be determined who does what. A specialist like yourself could have taken the opportunity to tell us how things should happen.

[Sylvie Gravel]

Listen, I worked in the healthcare system for 22 years. If there are two groups I want to represent, it's immigrant workers who have suffered occupational injuries and the health care systems having to deal with these cases. They don't know what to do with them, because all of a sudden, they are not, administratively speaking, under anyone's jurisdiction, and they don't have the full protection a workers is entitled to. As well, in a lot of cases, they have to get healthcare without making a claim to anyone, because these workers aren't covered. It concerns me that we are importing workers and that these people are all of a sudden in a grey area in terms of health care and occupational health and safety.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much for your testimony, Ms. Gravel.

Thank you, Mr. Ngankoy.

We are now going to take a one-minute break. I would ask members to remain at the table to avoid cutting into the time for the next group of witnesses. And I would invite that group to come forward.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. You will each have seven minutes to speak and make a preliminary statement. To facilitate matters, I will signal you when you have one minute left, so you will know that it is time to wrap up quickly. There will then be a question and answer period with the members that will allow you to complete your presentation.

This morning we have Mowafaq Thomas with us from the Saints-Martyrs-d'Orient Chaldean Church and also Abbass Alnajar and Hala Alobaidi from the Iraqi Community Centre.

You understand that your organization has seven minutes and you will have to share them. I will leave it up to you to decide how you will do that.

Mr. Thomas, you have seven minutes.

[Mowafaq Thomas, Église Chaldéene des Saints-Martyrs-d'Orient]

Honourable members of Parliament, bonjour , mesdames et messieurs.

After the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003, people around the world were expecting Iraq to become a democratic and prosperous country in the Middle East. After five years, the reality is simply the opposite. The country is almost divided; lawlessness, anarchy, and chaos are everywhere. All the people of the country were affected by this situation, most of all the Christian minorities.

Somebody might ask, who are the Christians of Iraq? Christians of Iraq trace their ancestry to the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians. They are known by various names, such as Assyrians; Chaldeans, for those who belong to the Chaldean church; and Syriacs, for those who are members of the Syrian Orthodox church.

The majority of the Assyrians converted to Christianity during the second century, giving the Assyrians a legitimate claim to being the first Christian nation in history. For centuries they have been persecuted and victims of terrorism. The situation for the original inhabitants of the land, the Christians, is very difficult indeed today in Iraq.

There are no specific statistics about the total population of Christians in Iraq. There are estimated to be about one million.

Saddam Hussein gave the Christians some sort of protection for a very simple reason--the Christians are hard-working, peace-loving, and law-abiding, and they have never been a threat. Their contribution to the well-being of Iraqi society far exceeds their number.

Since the fall of Saddam Hussein, the Christians have been targets of numerous attacks by extremists. For the many Sunni and Shiite militia living in Iraq, Christians are the enemy within. In the last five years, more than half of their very historic churches all over the country have been destroyed or heavily damaged. Thousands of children, women, and men were killed as a result of those bombings, and in addition, thousands were injured.

Militants see an automatic link between Iraqi Christians and the Christians of the west, so they hold them responsible for the invasion and for the subsequent hardships Iraq is going through.

After the Danish cartoon, as you may remember, ladies and gentlemen, car bombs exploded outside churches on January 29 in what appears to have been a coordinated attack. Two churches in Kirkuk and three others in the capital of Baghdad were targeted. More than five people, including a 13-year-old boy, were killed and more than 20 people were injured.

Militant gangs target Christians from all walks of life. Whatever the motive--financial, religious, territorial--the militants have one thing in common: they want the Christians either to convert to Islam or to leave the country.

Because of religious affiliation, economic status, and profession, many people who are doctors, teachers, and even hairdressers are viewed as being anti-Islamic.

The anonymous notes posted to Christian families in the city of Mosul in the north last December say it all: “Leave, crusaders, or we will cut off your heads.”

In the Shiite-dominated south there have been many accounts of Christian businessmen being shot dead on the streets for crimes such as running a liquor store or selling goods prohibited by Islamic law.

In Dora, a part of Baghdad, the Christians are living in very bad circumstances. All their churches were bombed. They have to pay a special local tax to live in their own homes and give their sisters or daughters to Muslims to convert to Islam. If they do not, they have to move their homes or they will be killed.

Last year, America's Catholic bishop said Christian persecution in Iraq had reached a crisis point and cited the crucifixion of a teenager in Basra, among several atrocities. Iraq's ambassador to the Vatican, in July, condemned atrocities and said that nobody can deny that a real persecution of Christians in Iraq is taking place.

On February 29 this year, after celebrating the way of the cross at the Church of the Holy Spirit near the city of Mosul, Archbishop Rahho was kidnapped. Gunmen shot his driver and two companions. His body was found after a few days. This is just one more example of the threat the Christian minority is under in Iraq now. Everybody agrees that the Christians face a different danger than the majority Muslim population of the country.

The support of our beloved country, Canada, for this humanitarian issue is crucial. Victims of torture and detention, individuals at risk of deportation from Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon, and orphaned children are all in urgent need of resettlement and protection. Delays can have devastating consequences for their lives.

It has been proven that Iraqis arriving in Canada have assimilated into Canadian society while sharing their colourful culture. Therefore, Canadians of Iraqi origin should be allowed, through the immigration office and their local churches in Canada, to sponsor their relatives and loved ones to immigrate to Canada. The leading role of Canada in alleviating suffering and providing safety to hundreds of thousands of refugees all over the world is greatly advanced and well recognized worldwide. Please know that the Christians of Iraq feel that they have been abandoned and forgotten by the world community. Those who are unable to flee the country are now waiting for their turn to die.

The Iraqi refugees, and Christians in particular, displaced in Iraq and around the neighbouring countries are calling upon the conscience of this great nation of Canada for your kind attention, support, and advocacy to help in resolving this humanitarian issue.

Thank you very much indeed for your kind attention, and may God bless Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

We will continue with Ms. Alobaidi. You have seven minutes.

[Hala Alobaidi, Member, Iraqi Community Centre]

Thank you very much. I have given copies of my presentation for everybody.

I want to give you an idea about what the Iraqi Community Centre is and what we do.

The Iraqi Community Centre was started in 1986. With the coming of the first group of Iraqi immigrants in the 1980s, we saw that there was no organization to take care of them, so a group of Iraqi families grouped together to start this community centre. The objective of the centre is to try to help Iraqis settle down in Canada. Iraqis are not used to immigration; we were not an immigrant society. Coming here, they were a bit lost, and we found that they needed somebody to support them, especially in Montreal. Most Iraqis speak English and don't speak French, so it was a challenge for them.

We don't have funding and we don't have employees. It's a group of volunteers who work together to try to help as many Iraqis as we can. We receive them from airports. Everybody has cars and can go there. You know that when they come here, they cannot find housing, so we try to find housing. We give them our names so that they can find housing to live in. Sometimes we open mosques for families when they come. They call us to say they are coming. The last time, they called for 16 members and they wanted something immediately, so we gave them the mosque. We don't have any way of supporting them other than that: our houses or the religious places.

We also provide them with lawyers and with translation. Every time we have more challenges, because it's a new thing. The immigrants who are coming—not only the refugees, but the immigrants—have different kinds of needs, and we have to adapt to that. This is what the Iraqi centre has been doing, and we try to organize different activities to receive these people.

We tried to get some statistics about the people who are coming to Canada. It's very difficult. I went to Statistics Canada and looked at the numbers. They don't represent the reality of Iraqi Canadians, because there are many more than they show; we know that. But this is what I found in Statistics Canada.

There is the problem also, when they come here, of the changing perception Canadians have of them, because of the image of them that people are seeing on TV. Arriving in Canada is already difficult, but the challenge when they arrive is facing the problem of Canadians' perception. This image will make their lives difficult in finding housing and jobs. We are not a violent nation, but you know how media picture things. This is a challenge we are trying to change. It's why we are trying to organize different kinds of activities with artists from Iraq, to show the community that we are not that bad.

Among the challenges regarding refugee status is that many countries are trying to receive people from different countries, especially Jordan and Syria. I go often to Jordan, and friends of mine who work for the UN in Syria told me that it's really a challenge for them there; millions of people are there. Everybody is coming to me as if I'm responsible for Canadian refugees, asking, “How can we come there? What can we do?”

Often they are doctors, and they cannot practise in Jordan, but they are living there. The standard of living has really gone down; you should see their houses. It hurts when you see people like that. The minimum was done; now they can have a card saying they can stay in Jordan. What was happening is that they were kicking them out. Most of them, if they go back, are threatened. That's why they left. Why would anybody want to suffer and leave the country they are in if they are safe?

With the card the UN gives them saying they are refugees, they have to wait. Sometimes Jordan and Syria respect these cards, but not always, and they're also difficult to get. Information is not available, and people don't understand what's going on.

The problem we are having is that there are many families with people stuck in Iraq. You cannot understand what's happening with the borders of Jordan, especially—about Syria, I'm not sure. You arrive—you take the airplane now—and either they send you back or they take you in. So they don't know what's happening; they have to take their chances.

Some people don't even have the means to leave; they don't have passports, they don't have papers, and they don't have the money to leave. But all the governments are looking at the refugees in Syria and Jordan and outside. I don't know who would think about the people who are stuck there. I have no idea.

Then the people who manage to leave face another problem, which is financial. What they do is apply as refugees and then go back to Iraq, but then when they come to the interview, they are told, “Oh, you went back to Iraq, so you're not really in need.” And they say, “But I don't have money. What do I do?” They are stuck in these procedures and regulations and don't know how to do deal with them.

We met with someone from the coalition for refugees. She told us to tell the people not to go back, but they don't have a choice; they have to go back. This is the only alternative, without money. That's why you see that in Syria there are horrible stories about people using their daughters in prostitution and things like that, and living without schools and without any means to survive.

We have been told many times that the process is very long. They ask for many papers that the people are unable to obtain, especially if they ask for some papers that exist in Iraq but not in Syria. And who would go around in Iraq now to get these papers? The father, normally, or the son will go back to Iraq to try to obtain these papers, and then they will lose their chance of obtaining refugee papers.

You have my paper about the challenges. I'm going to jump to what the Iraqi Community Centre would like to see.

We'd like to see higher numbers of refugees accepted. You see that the statistic given is 29,000 people, and I understand it is only 2,000 refugees that they are accepting. Each of us has family there, and everybody wants to bring their family. Many of us are willing to sponsor our families to come here. Just give us the chance to support them.

We'd like to have more speed in the process and also more support for the Iraqi refugees in Jordan and Syria.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much. You will have an opportunity to complete your presentation during the questions and comments period.

Mr. Telegdi, you have seven minutes.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll just make a short intervention, because I want to pass it over to my colleague.

We can take refugees and we can take them quickly. I was part of the 1956-57 exodus from Hungary during the revolution. There were 200,000 refugees who crossed into mostly Austria and some of the surrounding countries. Canada took 20%, and I dare say 95% of the refugees, of the 40,000 Canada took, arrived in Canada within six months. So there's no question in my mind that we can do it, and you can push for it. And especially with the private sponsorships that you're talking about, we should facilitate it.

It would also help stabilize the situation in that region, which is very unstable. I think that if we want to do some good stuff for the Middle East, this is one of the ways we can do it.

Now I'll pass it on to my colleague.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you very much, Andrew.

What can I say? Thank you, Madame Alobaidi and Mr. Thomas.

As you know, I've been involved with the Iraqi community here—the Iraqi Christian community, particularly—and of course, please accept my regrets on the assassination of the monsignor. I know we'll see one another at the church in a few days.

Some time ago—I think it was two or maybe three years ago—we talked seriously about the possibility of church sponsorship of Iraqi refugees, both in Iraq and in Syria and Jordan. It came to nothing. I bring this up because I would like it to go into the record that I think this is something we as a committee should look into very seriously: private sponsorship, in the sense that you have mentioned, Madame Alobaidi, but also church sponsorship.

My understanding, at the time I went to see the Minister of Immigration, was that the Christian churches themselves were not too keen on sponsoring the Christians out of Iraq and out of Iran. I include Iran because in fact the thousands of years of presence of Iraqi Christians and Iranian Christians and the whole Christian culture in the Middle East stand the chance of disappearing.

Do you know whether the upper echelons of the churches have changed their minds on this and whether they are willing to move forward on it with the help of various governments?

That's the first question I'll ask, and I'll ask it to anyone who wishes to answer.

[Mowafaq Thomas]

If I talk about the Christians, the Christians of course were, as I mentioned in my speech, the original inhabitants of that land. They have a very rich history in that country. They love that country, and none of them want to leave, but the situation has become so difficult, in fact unbearable, that their lives have become endangered, and people are afraid to continue being there.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Thomas, I'm going to interrupt you. Time is very short, and I stand the risk of not getting an answer to my question, and I think it's an important question. My question again is what is the reaction, what is the stand of the churches, both the Chaldean church, and generally the Catholic church, in helping Christians in Iran and Iraq to leave? That's my question.

[Mowafaq Thomas]

They are willing to help. As far as I know, they are willing to help those people who they feel are in danger. And as I mentioned, I would really recommend and request that you allow the churches here to sponsor, through the immigration office, those people, not necessarily only Christians. I'm an open-minded person. Even my brothers here who are Muslims--all my respect to them, we love them, we are part of them--could come through our churches, and they can sponsor their families, and we will sponsor our families and those who are in need.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you for saying that, because that was one of the problems I ran into in the sponsorship process, that obviously Canada could not be seen as sponsoring people of one religion only. But Mr. Alnajar and Madame Alobaidi, as I understand, are both Muslims, so they should obviously be included in such a program if such a program existed.

So I would certainly urge this committee to make recommendations to the minister as to the sponsorship.

Mr. Telegdi talked about his own personal experience as a former Hungarian refugee. We've also had the Vietnamese. Canada received the Nansen Medal for the help it gave to the Vietnamese refugees, with the fall of Vietnam to North Vietnam and communist countries.

It seems to me personally that Canada should move forward, not with a few hundred families but in a big way, to help people in Iraq and Iran—and I include Iran in this—be they Christians or Muslims or anything else. They are refugees; they need our help, and I think that Canada should move forward. And I look forward also to the help of the Christian and Muslim faiths here, of the organized communities, to help the Canadian government and to make representations to the Canadian governments through this immigration committee so that this project can move forward.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Carrier, you have seven minutes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to this meeting.

Ms. Alobaidi, you mentioned that Iraqis or refugee claimants tend to speak English and that this was a problem in Quebec, but I would like to know whether some refugee claimants who already speak French could be directed to Quebec.

[Hala Alobaidi]

Unlike the Lebanese and Moroccans, Iraqis speak English and not French, in general. I learned French in Iraq, where there is a French cultural centre. Iraqis have a gift for languages; that is why many of them speak several languages. It is not a problem for them.

Things changed during the 1980s. Now, people coming from Iraq are very educated. They know several languages. In addition, there are a lot of French courses in Quebec. The Iraqi Community Centre encourages people to learn the language. If you come to our activities, you will see that there have been a lot of changes within our community.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you. I find that reassuring, because I see that you speak French very well also. So it's not a problem.

You say you are in favour of increasing the number of refugees in Canada. However, as you noted, it is not easy for people to change their culture and get used to a new country. That is not always easily done.

Do you think that Canada could make more efforts on site, with the United Nations High Commission, to try to repatriate people to their country of origin? Can that be considered while at the same time accepting refugees? Could this country improve the situation over there, on site?

[Hala Alobaidi]

I think so.

It is difficult for me to answer questions like that. I am new to the refugee and immigration issue myself. Personally, I am involved in a different issue. But because I am Iraqi and there is a lot of need, I have got involved in this issue. I am learning, as everyone is. It is only because I am Iraqi and I have a little information.

For suggestions like that, I have to consult people. There are 12 people working for the Iraqi Community Centre. For questions like that, I will consult people who know more than I do.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Given Mr. Thomas's clear description of the persecution his community has suffered in Iraq, I would like him to tell me whether that is actually an inherent problem in that country, a pre-existing problem. Is it a hopeless situation that calls for us to take in more refugees, to solve the problem he has described? Are there other efforts to be made on site so that people can live in greater harmony within Iraq?

You mentioned that while Saddam Hussein was in power, you were recognized as hard-working and not demanding. Is it the government they have been trying to put in place for five years that is the problem or is it the way they are changing the direction of the country, with the United States saying it is going very well and success will be achieved in a short time?

[Mowafaq Thomas]

Sir, let me explain to you and to the members present.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Christians in Iraq didn't have a problem. In fact, they were part of society, well accepted, and treated like everybody else. I am an example of that. I had a scholarship from the Iraqi government to study in the United States and then go back. I was like every other citizen of Iraq. I never left Iraq until I came here to Canada in 1996 because the situation had deteriorated.

Now, it's not only Saddam Hussein; I just brought an example of Saddam Hussein. In terms of the situation in Iraq, it's said now that the United States is there that it's high politics. It has something to do with Iraq, something to do with the region, something to do with geopolitics behind our talk here. It's far more complicated than I think.

But for the Christians, there are so many factors involved now. Militants are coming not only from Iraq itself, but from all over. These executions and atrocities are not really done by Iraqis; they're done by people from the outside, people who are coming from Saudi Arabia, Iran, and perhaps Syria. It's all the neighbouring countries. It's Afghanistan as well, working within certain communities there and creating that chaos in the country. It's political. Everybody is involved, and the neighbouring countries.

The victim is the minority. Because of the association with the west.... The Christians are associated with the west, and consequently they are treated as such. They try to inflict as much harm as possible, indicating to the west, “These are your people.” In reality, they are not their people simply because they are Christians.

You mentioned assimilation, bringing these people and assimilating them into the country. This country has a very long history of knowing how to assimilate immigrants from all over the world, whether they are Vietnamese, or from eastern European countries, or even Latin American countries. This country has the experience, the know-how, and--