Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 15th, 2008

[Humphrey Sheean]

We said this was about workers who are here for longer periods. For example, some temporary workers come to help in the harvest on farms. We are thinking rther of people who are here for longer periods. In that case, the spouses and children of those workers should be able to work too. That is not the case at present.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

In fact, if we look at the Temporary Foreign Worker program we can see that some of them come very temporarily, for example to do the harvest, as you said. Often, those people leave their families behind, they work for a few months, and then they go back to their countries. They are not particularly interested in settling here, and in any case they can't do that.

[Humphrey Sheean]

That's right.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

The people you are talking about will have to work for a longer period and so they would be settling here with their families. At that point, to what extent are we still talking about temporary work? If I have to go and work in a country and I bring my wife and children, who go to school there and can even work there in the evening, after school, I imagine I will want to be settling down and buying a house. I will probably sell my property in my home country.

I find that interesting, but is that not what defines a permanent resident? How is this consistent with the Temporary Foreign Worker Program?

[Tony Lampart]

I'll refer to one specific example we have right now that we're looking at, which is the truck driver situation in New Brunswick. We have a fairly large contingent of truck drivers who are here on temporary work permits simply because the process for getting a work permit is faster than an immigration process. The needs of the employers are immediate, so by going through the work permit process the drivers are here sooner.

The vast majority of these drivers are interested in being permanent and using a nominee program to change their status from temporary to permanent. This is the type of worker we would like to look at in the pilot project, because when you do a pilot you have to keep it simple to see whether it works and whether it can be applied in other areas as well.

So I think we could start looking at issues such as the ones with truck drivers, where we know the families are here, the children are here, and the spouse can apply for a work permit only after we have nominated them. But we cannot nominate people immediately, because we want to make sure that first, the driver likes it here, and second, that the employer is interested in making a long-term relationship. So we have to let a few months pass to get the comfort level up on both sides. Then we use the nominee program to move on this to make it permanent.

This period from arrival until we do a nomination is very important because this, in most cases, is the most difficult period, when they have to adjust to their new life, when the spouses and the children of the drivers are most affected. Not only do they have to grapple with the changes they face in a new country, but they also feel isolated because they cannot participate in life in those areas the way their neighbours can.

We have mentioned this to Citizenship and Immigration on several occasions. It's not only in New Brunswick, by the way. Other provinces have mentioned it as well. We really feel that we should look at this through a pilot project to see whether it works, what the pros and cons are in the end, and whether a nationwide program could be implemented, based on our experience.

[Humphrey Sheehan]

You know, these rules were made at a time when the domestic labour force and unemployment rates may have been much higher and we wanted to ensure the protection of domestic workers.

During our consultations, a number of employers have told us how much they needed workers to work in those sectors of the labour market.

I really think that if we can loosen this up a little bit....

We met with the deputy minister of CIC recently in Fredericton. We had a stakeholder meeting of a number of employers who talked to him about this very issue. So we think it's quite important to the province.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I am certainly not opposed to it in principle; on the contrary, I believe that family reunification, and having your family with you,is important. However, as you illustrated clearly at the beginning of your presentation, Mr. Lampart, creating this kind of program would be an alternative, a way to get around it, because the existing program isn't working. In my opinion, if all we do is find a solution rather than truly fixing the problem, the solution could then become the rule.

In fact, waiting times are too long. For example, processing times for permanent residence applications make no sense. In that case, everyone will do it this way: they will enter Canada first as temporary workers, and then immediately bring their families, and settle in that way.

I understand that you have immediate needs for workers because of growth. It might be useful to have a pilot project to meet those needs, but we have to be sure that we avoid any potential negative consequences.

I don't know whether I have time to ask one last question. This isn't necessarily connected with what we are studying today. In your book on demographic growth, there is a section dealing with settlement in francophone and rural communities. For francophone communities, you set a number of objectives for the government to meet.

In terms of immigration, are there immigrant selection strategies in New Brunswick, or mechanisms for giving priority to immigrants from francophone countries, to help those places preserve their francophone character?

[Humphrey Sheean]

The Provincial Nominee Program certainly supports employers to help address shortages in the labour force. They are the ones who determine the needs.

We ourselves recognize the need to ensure a degree of fairness in terms of language. At present, we are making efforts to preserve that fairness, in terms of how our objectives regarding demographic growth are achieved.

Some of the officers who work for Mr. Lampart work specifically in the francophone market, be it in France, Romania, Belgium, Africa, Haiti or other francophone countries. Quite a bit of effort is made to make sure we attract francophone immigrants and keep them in the province. Naturally, the employers in the province have to do their part to identify the jobs these people who settle in New Brunswick and then stay here will be able to get.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Carrier is next, and then we will ask our friends from the Atlantic Provinces Trucking Association to come forward. You have the trucking association back there, which you just talked about a moment ago.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am just going to continue on the same subject as my colleague. You know, Quebec has a federal-provincial agreement under which the Government of Quebec selects its immigrants as the first step, before the federal government does the final analysis. It seems to me that this provides a guarantee that the local government will select the ideal candidates, who should be a good fit with the needs in the area.

[Tony Lampart]

The provincial nominee program is not on the same level as the Canada-Quebec accord on immigration, but it does give the province selection criteria. We select our immigrants and recommend them to the federal government, or nominate them to the federal government, which makes the final decision.

We have seen a real difference in New Brunswick since starting to work with the provincial nominee program, because we now have a tool to select immigrants. The provincial nominee program looks at economic immigrants only, so we are able to select the immigrants that our economy needs, our employers need, and who our interviews show have a desire to stay here.

We don't have the Canada-Quebec accord, but the provincial nominee program has been an excellent tool for us.

[Humphrey Sheean]

I went to France last spring, to Paris, Rennes and Rouen. In each case, even in Paris, 250 people came to hear what we had to say about New Brunswick. I think there is quite a lot of interest.

We need to find positions in New Brunswick and employers who are prepared to hire these people. This will make it possible for people who are interested in New Brunswick to come and live here.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I believe there is a relatively recent program that should provide some good results. In the statistics you provided to us, and I would mention that you have some very fine documents, with positive figures, I note that interprovincial immigration leaves New Brunswick in a deficit position. So there are more people leaving than coming in. I assume that if immigrants were selected better, the ratio would balance out and might leave New Brunswick in the black.

So I was wondering why you have a pilot project that focuses on temporary workers.

On our travel across the country, we have seen that this temporary workers program also causes a lot of problems. It is not the ideal solution. People often have problems and are not aware of their rights. So the best way is still to work on better immigration in order to keep people. In fact, you want to include the spouses of these workers and allow them to work here.

Why not focus your efforts more on getting more immigrants?

[Humphrey Sheean]

We are doing that now. We also recognize that many of the people who settle in New Brunswick under our permanent program start out as temporary workers. So most of the people who come to work in New Brunswick temporarily in the beginning get to know the province. Ultimately, after contacting an employer and making an agreement with the employer, these workers are taken into our permanent program and become permanent citizens of the province.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I assume that your pilot project has been set up in collaboration with Immigration Canada.

[Humphrey Sheean]

It hasn't been done yet, we have only proposed it.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

So it is just a proposal.

[Humphrey Sheean]

That's right. It is simply a proposal that we have made to the federal government.

As you have undoubtedly noticed as you travel across Canada, all of the provinces and some employers recognize that there is a challenge at present. We are therefore trying to propose solutions to the federal government. We have told it that we have conducted pilot projects in the past, and we have said that it was our opinion that we are one of the best provinces for doing it. New Brunswick is a small province that is kind of a microcosm of Canada, given that it is both rural and urban, and the bilingualism here.

So we are in a good position to test projects that might provide answers for the whole country. We have demonstrated this in the past with programs for international students.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

As the temporary workers program operates, the employer agrees to have a person work for it. In your pilot project, the agreement would have to include the spouse, because you want to include spouses. I assume that the spouse would therefore have to be included in the undertaking given by the employer.

[Humphrey Sheean]

Spouses will not necessarily work for the same employer. The only thing we are suggesting for the pilot project is that the spouses and children of temporary workers also be able to work in the community where they are living.

For example, there might be a truck driver who has come from France or another country. So we are proposing that the spouse and children also be able to work. That helps the family become part of the community.

That is what came out of our consultations.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Certainly there are a few little details to iron out.

[Humphrey Sheean]

Certainly.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you. We appreciate your coming before the committee today.

I think that just about wraps it up.

Did you have an additional question? We do have our friends from the Atlantic Provinces Truckers Association.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Yes, I do, Mr. Chair.

I really would like to thank you for coming. I was just looking at the title of the booklet you gave us, “It's time to act”, “C'est le temps d'agir”. It certainly is a title that we could be using for our report when we do our report, because it really is great.

Let me just say a couple of things. Number one, one of the beauties about the Maritimes, and it sure hasn't been lost on me, is one of the things I do when I go anywhere is look at the real estate, and somebody can actually come here as a worker and buy a house. You can't say the same for Toronto or Vancouver or Edmonton or Calgary or Kitchener-Waterloo, Waterloo region. So that's a real plus. The other one is that the geography is just beautiful. I could sell my house in Waterloo region and I could come down here and I could have a cottage down in Florida, because I understand the winters are harsh. The fishing is great and the outdoor life is great, and it's a beautiful part of the country. I just wanted to leave that with you.

I thank you very much. You have taken a real initiative. We appreciate it and wish you all the success.

I'll just leave you with one thought. Push the government to do reform. One thing that the landed immigrant will do for you, and it's been said before, is if somebody decides to come here, then they end coming with capital that they invest here when they come, versus the temporary foreign worker who will come and might be landed. But when somebody decides that they're going to pick up stakes and they're going to move somewhere, then they take everything they have and they invest it in the place where they establish.

Merci beaucoup.