Evidence of meeting #32 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csic.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Annette Landman  Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual
George Maicher  President, New Brunswick Multicultural Council
Humphrey Sheehan  Chief Executive Officer, Population Growth Secretariat, Government of New Brunswick
Tony Lampart  Executive Director, Immigration Division, Population Growth Secretariat, Government of New Brunswick
John C. Robison  President, SkillSearch Recruiting, Atlantic Provinces Trucking Association

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Good morning.

We will begin our meeting. A couple of members are a bit tardy this morning. They're doing interviews and should be along fairly soon.

I want to welcome Annette Landman, Canadian certified immigration consultant and president of Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Incorporated. Just for your information, Annette, we're the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration of the House of Commons, and we've been mandated by the House to study three very important items: temporary foreign workers, immigration consultants, and the Iraqi refugee problem.

We've been meeting in all provinces. We will be meeting here today and tomorrow in Halifax and the following day in St. John's, Newfoundland. We will have heard approximately 52 panels. So for your information, at the end of the process our officials along with the committee members will compile a report, and we will present that report with recommendations to the minister and to the House of Commons. The recommendations will be based upon what we've been hearing as we go, from these 52 panels. So welcome to you.

We had a chat beforehand, and you know the drill. Generally we have an opening statement of about seven minutes, but since you're only one witness, feel free to forget about that rule and make your presentation and if you want ten minutes or so you go right ahead.

Thank you for coming, and we're all ears.

April 15th, 2008 / 9:10 a.m.

Annette Landman Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Thank you for the opportunity to address this honourable committee on some of the issues plaguing the immigration consulting industry in Canada.

As you know, I am a certified Canadian immigration consultant with a local company here in Florenceville, New Brunswick. I am in good standing with the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, which I will refer to as CSIC.

I've been working as an immigration consultant since March 2003. I took the first available CSIC full membership exam and passed at the first attempt. I know you've already heard some of my fellow CSIC members, and I know you have already addressed some of the issues with CSIC itself; however, I decided to come and voice my experience and opinion with you, since I feel that something needs to be done to the present functioning of CSIC.

I'm not before this committee today to destroy CSIC. I am, however, here to advise the committee that CSIC is not fulfilling its mandate as intended by Parliament when it was created.

Why would I say this, as a member of this organization? The CSIC initiative is suffering greatly due to actions and decisions taken by the initial board. The initial directors have not delivered the self-governing profession, as was their task. CSIC has denied members their rightful role in the society. The go-it-alone attitude of the board is, in my view, destroying this profession.

Members have questioned many board decisions without success. The board may have lost our confidence, but members have no tools to hold the board accountable now or in the foreseeable future. The initial directors have arranged things so as to deny all normal mechanisms of accountability to CSIC members.

What is needed now is radical intervention by a third party. Intervention is necessary to compel the current directors to either establish a democratic organization, as was intended by cabinet, or step down.

My hope is that the members collectively may be able to rescue the society from the excess of the first four years and chart a more sustainable future for CSIC. If the current directors are not prepared to provide members their rightful role, they should be removed and replaced.

Please do realize that I could lose my CSIC membership by speaking to you today and criticizing the CSIC board.

For several years I've been concerned about the high cost of running the operation. For example, for rent, from the beginning, the board of CSIC arranged for office space in a very expensive location at a rental cost of over $233,000 a year. This was a time when there were no members, and they committed to a ten-year lease. They could have rented anywhere in the greater Toronto area. But there was nothing the members could do about it, because for three years there were no full members besides the directors, so the directors had the right to make all decisions.

Members were concerned about the high cost, and in October 2006 a group of concerned members wrote a petition to the board requesting a special meeting to discuss several issues faced by the members. This was ignored by the board.

Those on the board of directors have paid themselves a handsome salary, plus benefits, which I believe will be more than $700,000 this year. There is little transparency, but the members have never been permitted a look inside the directors' compensation amount. I am concerned about both their fees and their expenses.

CBC News had already reported this, on November 24, 2005, and December 14, 2005, and CIC did an investigative audit, but the board would not release the report to the members.

The board approves its own expenses without member input. The expenses incurred by directors are very high, as well. In the past years, for instance, CSIC has paid for trips to China, Australia, and England. We have received announcements of international travel to China by the chairperson, John Ryan, and board member Alfred Wong, and trips to Australia and New Zealand by John Ryan and Ross Eastley. The chair and the vice-chair have each taken a $12,000 course to learn how to be a director, at the members' expense.

Members feel that these kinds of expenses are excessive, especially when there is no finance committee of members to oversee them.

Members are charged unreasonable annual membership fees and additional fees to attend mandatory continuous professional development. They call it CPD.

It appears that CSIC is in need of money. This might be why CSIC allocated greater CPD points to its own program and significantly reduced the CPD points for other educational programs with greater value and content than that of CSIC. Programs with similar or better content organized by other organizations, such as the Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants, and by the Canadian Bar Association charge significantly less than CSIC programs.

CSIC forced us to come to a mandatory educational event in May 2007. CSIC has members worldwide, and not all are able to travel to Toronto. For me, it is a heavy burden. I have to fly to Toronto, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Vancouver, Montreal, and so on, in order to attend any meetings that might give me CPD points.

I attended one of these events in Toronto recently. It cost me $535 for my ticket, $367 for my hotel, and....

[Technical difficulties--Editor]

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We lost the volume, but we're back again. Go ahead.

9:15 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

I am self-employed, and this is a lot of money for my organization. Attending this seminar gave me 20 CPD points. I will receive another 15 CPD points by purchasing the DVD at the 2007 seminar.

Remember, this was a mandatory seminar, and if you don't attend, you will have to buy the DVD for $800. Most of the information on the DVD is old, and there are new rules and regulations in place, but still CSIC forces me to buy it. This system is really a pay-for-your-points system. I'm sure I will have to spend a lot of money to get my five remaining points before October 18, 2008.

We now have to pay for a second organization. The directors have incorporated a for-profit organization to do some things CSIC should be doing. They call it CMI, Canadian Migration Institute. CSIC should be responsible for education for members. On March 20, 2008, CSIC announced that their CEO was moving over to be the managing director of CMI, and Mr. Ryan would be the acting CEO of CSIC. In other words, it now looks like CSIC members must pay salaries for two CEOs, as well as the cost of sets of books, two websites, two sets of directors' fees, etc.

CSIC has not provided any information to us about the need for this. When I was in Toronto on April 4 and 5 to attend the first CMI seminar, John Ryan spoke at his private party and told us that we, as CSIC members, are the owners of CMI.

By the way, the invitation for this party was printed with the CSIC logo. Mr. Ryan and a fellow board member paid for the room and they were extremely selective in handing out the invitations, so not all CSIC members were invited to come to this party. At this point I'm not sure who paid for the food and wine that was given away there, but I think I can guess.

With respect to ghost consultants, CSIC's slow pace in implementing enforcement policies remains a serious concern. It puts into question the ability of the society to regulate its members and protect the interests of the public. Thus far, even government seems uninterested in stepping in to ensure that CSIC's public protection mandate is being fulfilled. This is the government's responsibility, since they created the society and confer legitimacy on CSIC members as authorized representatives under IRPA. They cannot now disavow any responsibility for ensuring that CSIC is protecting the public.

If CSIC is not fulfilling its mandate, then the organization needs to be reorganized, the board given a definite mandate to get the organization in order within a specific number of months or risk being dissolved, or the current board removed.

The bylaws permit members to remove directors. Therefore, in theory, this is one method of accountability. This has been discussed within pockets of the membership insofar as the current board has lost the confidence of many members. However, to do so requires two-thirds of the votes of the members at a special meeting. We have no right to compel a special meeting. We have tried in the past, but it's just been ignored. Plus, we have no right to put motions on the agenda of an AGM. We've tried in the past; our motions have been ignored.

This effectively cancels any ability to put a motion before the membership to remove directors. Notwithstanding this impediment, one of my colleagues was courageous enough to propose such a motion and seek the 50 signatures required to advance it for consideration at the 2007 AGM. However, many members have experienced first-hand the consequences of daring to challenge the directors, and most people were afraid to sign this petition.

CSIC bylaws stipulate that the AGM must be held in person and its members must approve any amendment. The CSIC board chose an over-the-Internet AGM, although that is contrary to the current bylaw. That does not allow members' participation and it takes away our tools to make contributions. The electronic meeting was not properly planned. The meeting was eventually cancelled due to the lack of required quorum. In today's world, adding the Internet component to a worldwide organization is a great idea. However, it needs to be approved by members and proper tools must be in place to allow meaningful contribution.

In many organizations, one can look forward to an election each year to make changes to a board. When members are very dissatisfied, they can run a slate of candidates to get the organization turned around and moving in a better direction. That is not the case with CSIC. The initial directive set up a system now entrenched into the bylaws ensuring the initial decision-makers stayed on for years. As well, the system is designed so that only two consultant directors are elected in each election, making it impossible for the membership to elect a critical mass of persons who may challenge the status quo. This makes it very easy for the current executive to simply isolate any progressive voice or two that was elected. Also, we are not permitted to know how directors are voting on board issues so as to make elections meaningful.

The CSIC rules of professional conduct were amended in March 2007 to make it a professional offence to undermine the society and to compel members to treat the society with dignity and respect. These were widely perceived by members as offensive and inappropriate, particularly as the board appears to see itself as the society and was designed to deter any criticism of them under pain of professional discipline.

In the summer of 2007 an amendment was made to the discipline policy to allow CSIC to suspend a member first while conducting the investigation. This extraordinary power in the hands of responsible professionals who respect the rules of law and legal limits on interfering with people's livelihood may, indeed, be necessary in extreme circumstances, but in the hands of persons who are not legally trained and who themselves are known to use their authority against members who challenge them and who have created a deeply politicized atmosphere, including making it a disciplinable offence to disrespect the society, and acting as if they alone were the society, it is scary.

In general, people surrender membership if the needs are not met. There is no way we can quit our membership to CSIC. Once we would do so, we would be ghost consultants and act at the wrong side of the law. There is nothing we can do against the way CSIC is currently operating.

What are the solutions to this? In my opinion, the government cannot afford to play a hands-off game in the affairs of the society it helped create with public funds. CSIC must be mandated to follow a true democratic administration process that is free of intimidation of its members. In particular, the following steps are critical to the democratic participation of members:

First is the ability to compel a special meeting upon the written request of a percentage--five percent was approved by earlier boards--of the membership. This would go a long way to placing power back in the hands of members collectively, where it belongs, and will likely have a magical effect on encouraging the board to embark on consultations with members on major initiatives. To formally add this legal right, the bylaws must be amended. This should be a priority at the next AGM.

Second, the board must hold an in-person AGM in 2008 and each year until such time as the members pass a bylaw permitting electronic AGMs, including safeguards required by Industry Canada on electronic meetings. Of course, some members may wish to attend and vote online if they wish, but the board of directors cannot compel all members to do so and thus avoid facing the members at all.

Third, the bylaws should provide for a clear, fair, and democratic process whereby members can place motions on the agenda of the AGM. Until such time as they can be amended to do so, the board should adopt a policy for a clear, fair, and democratic process for members to have their motions on the agenda.

Four: Transparency is critical. Minutes of all board and committee meetings must be available to members to keep up on what their society is doing and to exercise their right to oversee the board's actions, as is their responsibility.

Five: A finance committee of members should be instituted immediately.

Six: All activities of CMI Incorporated should cease and be handled by CSIC until such time as a special meeting of members can be convened to discuss and debate and members can vote on the continuance or dissolution of second organizations.

Seven: The minister should ask the CSIC board to report back within six months as to what concrete steps, as above, have been taken by CSIC to ensure transparency, democracy, and accountability to the members of CSIC.

Eight: The government also needs to move swiftly to criminalize the operation of immigration consulting without being members of CSIC or provincial bar associations. Appropriate IRPA and IP-9 must be amended to reflect the necessary changes.

These measures would go a long way to reasserting the initial intention to establish a member-funded, member-driven society that benefits from the collective wisdom, talent, and resources of immigration consultants in the industry. Members too must start thinking like the owners. They are indeed the owners of an important initiative and the stewards of an important trust that the public of Canada has given them.

I respectfully ask that you intervene on behalf of CSIC members to permit them to take up their role as a boss.

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Ms. Landman.

How many CSIC members would you have here in New Brunswick?

9:25 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

As far as I know, there are three.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

And you pay membership fees to CSIC.

9:25 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

What are your membership fees here?

9:25 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

We pay approximately $2,400 a year in membership fees.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Okay. So that would be, I would imagine, the same for all provinces.

9:25 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

If our committee were to make recommendations to the government, you're saying there should be more transparency. CSIC is not transparent. Do they inform you on a regular basis, every year, about their AGM? Is the notice sent out to all members here in New Brunswick about their upcoming AGM?

9:30 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

In fact, we've been screaming for AGMs. We've been asking for AGMs. The board is not really giving us AGMs. We have to ask. Last year the board decided that our AGM would be an online AGM. However, we have no input. We could watch it online, and John Ryan was hosting it, and there was nothing we could do.

At a certain point we were asked to put a motion in. So they asked us to e-mail if we were for or against a certain something. We all sent our e-mails, and after about ten minutes John Ryan said, “So I can see most of the people are for this, so let's put it through”. And we have no means to check if these e-mails actually came in and if most of the members were actually agreeing with this, yes or no.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

So CSIC wouldn't have any committees that operate. You mentioned a finance committee. There's no finance committee or any such thing in CSIC.

9:30 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

No. They approve their own expenses. We as members, even if we ask for a financial report, don't get it. We don't know what's in the financial reports.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Are there any provincial regulations for immigration consultants?

9:30 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

Not here in New Brunswick at this point. I know that, for example, in Manitoba they're trying to do something about ghost consultants, as a province. Here in New Brunswick, in the past year, yes, we've seen that e-mails went out to people who were ghost consultants. They're not allowed to represent their clients in the provincial government offices any more, and things like that. So that has been done. But I think it's mainly ruled federally.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

So you mentioned something about 5% of the membership is required in order to ask for a special meeting.

9:30 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Is that what you're looking for? Or is that a hard and fast rule right now? Is that the rule?

9:30 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

It is in the bylaws, yes. So we did get a petition together. We sent it in because we needed the special meeting to create a financial committee and things like that.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

So do you generally have any problems getting 5% of your membership to require a special meeting?

9:30 a.m.

Canadian Certified Immigration Consultant; President, Eastern Canada Immigration and Job Consultants Inc.; As an Individual

Annette Landman

Our biggest problem is that we don't know who the members are, because CSIC—

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

You don't have a list of the membership?