Evidence of meeting #42 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was backlog.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lorne Waldman  Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual
Barbara Jackman  Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
Janet Dench  Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
Philip Mooney  National President, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Imran Qayyum  Vice-Chair, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
Warren Creates  Head, Immigration Law Group, Perley-Robertson, Hill and McDougall LLP
David Cohen  Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual
John P. Ryan  Chair, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
Tom Pang  Acting President, Chinese Canadian Community Alliance
Ping Tan  National Executive Co-Chair, National Congress of Chinese Canadians
Roberto Jovel  Coordinator, Policy and Research, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

4:15 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual

Lorne Waldman

Excuse me if I speak English, but my French is not very good.

There is no limitation on the instructions. They don't exempt provincial agreements. They don't exempt provincial nominees. There's nothing in the wording of this legislation that would preclude the minister from issuing an instruction to say, at some point in the future, if she got into a dispute with the Quebec immigration minister, not to process Quebec applications. There's nothing in the legislation that precludes this. It might lead to a constitutional problem. It might lead to a challenge in the issuance of the instruction, but the instructions are not restricted in what they can and cannot do in that way. There could be an instruction issued that would say not to process any provincial nominees. There could be an instruction that would say to put provincial nominees at the back of the file because they want people with confirmed job offers. Or an instruction could be given not to process provincial nominees from Quebec or Manitoba, because they're in a dispute over something or other.

My reading, and I don't know if Ms. Jackman agrees, is that there's no restriction. If you're concerned as a Quebecker about the potential impact of this power on the power of Quebec to select immigrants, you have very good reason to be concerned.

I apologize, Mr. Chair, I have to go to another committee meeting.

4:15 p.m.

National President, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Philip Mooney

To elaborate on that point, in a technical briefing the deputy minister indicated how they might use that power. For example, if there were a drastic shortage in any one profession in Canada and one provincial program was taking all of the applicants preferentially, they said the minister would have the right to intervene and stop those individuals from going to that province. That was the example they used to show how this could apply outside of the areas that have been indicated as having the intention to apply.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees

Janet Dench

In fact, the power the government is giving itself is not so much to refuse visas than to not issue them. Presently, if a person meets all the criteria set out in the act, the visa officer must issue a visa. But under the changes proposed, it only says that the visa may be issued. If the visa officer does not want to issue a visa, he or she does not refuse but simply does nothing. Doing nothing means that no decision is made. Consequently, the right of appeal to the Federal Court, for example, is limited since there is no decision. There is nothing to challenge.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

How much time do I have left?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

You have a minute.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Mooney, you raised the issue of consultation in order to solve problems. Mr. Waldman also mentioned that the power to control is taken away from Parliament. When a bill is introduced in Parliament, there automatically follows a consultation, such as we are having here today in this Committee. As well, we meet with people because MPs are also contacted directly.

Once the power is given to the minister to issue instructions — there is not even a role for the governor in council — no consultation of any sort is required, whereas if the instructions had to be considered at least by our Committee, for example, some pressure could be exerted to inflect the decisions. That is the heart of the problem.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Could we have a brief response, please?

4:15 p.m.

National President, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Philip Mooney

I think it's unreasonable to expect all of you and the minister and possibly even those at the deputy minister level to really understand the heart and soul of the immigration act at the level that changes can really be implemented. It's a bit like saying to someone in the medical committee that they might know a lot about medicine, but they're not a doctor and I wouldn't let them operate on me. Sorry if I've used that analogy before.

The point is that it's up to the individuals who understand the system in depth--those who live in it, work in it, including the department, the practitioners, and other interest groups--to say these are the real guts of the changes. These decisions or recommendations should then go to the minister, after consultation, for action. And how the minister chooses to act on those issues is absolutely the prerogative of Parliament.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I'll have to stop you there, sir. Sorry.

Mr. Komarnicki, you have seven minutes.

May 12th, 2008 / 4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Chair, I find it highly inappropriate to have one of the witnesses who made a significant number of statements with respect to legalities of Bill C-50 leaving before the round of questioning was finished. He should have been here at least until the end of this round.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I agree.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I think that certainly when you get into the questioning and you allow the other parties to examine, you should keep the witness until we complete the round.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Yes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I find it highly inappropriate for that to happen.

Having said that--

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Colleen Beaumier Liberal Brampton West, ON

Come on, that's a double standard, Mr. Chair.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

It is a double standard. That's precisely the point.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Colleen Beaumier Liberal Brampton West, ON

It's a double standard. We can leave without them commenting on it.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Colleen Beaumier Liberal Brampton West, ON

That's very inappropriate.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please.

It's generally accepted that the witness will remain until he's questioned by all members. He never had the permission of the committee. He just said he had to leave, and he took off.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I have a point of order on that, Mr. Chairman.

He had to go over to the finance committee.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Yes, I know that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

He's testifying on the same thing.

If they didn't have this crazy system--