Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

--or settlement services or ISAP? It's none whatsoever?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

No.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

That is frustrating. Are you saying that if we do set up a stand-alone special operation, it actually hurts the department, because you would get less money from the general...or would you be able to get more money? I wouldn't want the immigration department to have less money. By doing so, would you then have more money coming into the department or less?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The risk exists that it could be less, because if they say we are now a stand-alone department and then we have to raise all our revenues and pay them out to the other departments, we are all of a sudden starting to become a revenue generator, which changes our mandate significantly; instead of providing services, we're now a business unit, with all the risks and rewards that that entails.

If we don't get sufficient revenue, then we provide even less service, but if we go to that kind of standard, it's very conceivable that the general revenue would provide zero funding, saying that we should be a stand-alone.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I see. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Very good. Time's up. Thank you, Ms. Chow.

Mr. Komarnicki is next.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for commenting on the various activities of the committee here.

I know Mr. Telegdi raised the issue of the shortage of skilled workers and temporary foreign workers. Almost every part of our economy in Canada is robust, and there is a significant need in that area. Of course, he's talked about the undocumented workers and how they may fit into the program, but it seems to me we are providing a somewhat legitimate avenue or stream for people to come into our country to meet the needs of that robust economy. I know you've mentioned the provincial nominee program, but we also have other programs, and I'm particularly interested in the Canadian experience class.

I might add that we have had a fairly robust budget. There is $51 million with respect to the temporary foreign worker program, $34 million in selecting the immigrants whose skills and experience Canada needs, and of course a $1.3 billion budget over five years for the integration programs for newcomers.

Having said that, I'm particularly interested in the Canadian experience class because it certainly allows for foreign students to come into our country. It allows for temporary foreign workers to make a leap into something that's more permanent. I've had the opportunity to make an announcement of your extension of the off-campus work permits for private institutions, and that went over very well in both Edmonton and in Winnipeg. In fact, Diane McGifford, the Manitoba Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy said with respect to that one portion of the program:

There are almost 3,000 international students attending post-secondary schools in Manitoba, many of them at private institutions. The expansion of the Off-campus Work Permit program will mean more international students will bring their skills, knowledge, and their own distinctive perspectives to our workplaces.

In terms of legitimizing ways for people to come into our country and meet the needs, particularly with respect to the Canada experience class, could you comment on what's being done?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

They are all very good programs; we're rather excited about them because they are innovative and they do contribute to the economy in both the short term and the long term, we believe.

The off-campus work program has been very well received. Last year we had over 11,000 post-secondary students take advantage of it. It's a great program. It helps the students earn some money to help pay their way, but more importantly it provides two things. One is that it gives them Canadian work experience. It lets them learn about Canadian work ethics and how to find a job in Canada, because it's often different in the countries they come from. It gives them references. It lets them learn how to adapt to Canada.

That's really good for them; it's good for us as well, because in the long term, when they go to graduate--and I know this from some work I did a few years ago with the evaluation of the post-secondary system in Ontario--80% of university and college students want to stay in the town where they graduated. So if we can encourage these students to stay through the Canadian experience class, we're getting people who have already become familiar with and created ties to that community but who have also learned how to work in Canada. They have the experience. They're much more likely to get a job there. Then we get the benefit of these newcomers, which we need. It's a terrific program.

I'm glad to see that the pilot projects are going along well in terms of extending it to private institutions. I'll be interested to see the results of those programs. Over the long term, as we fully launch the Canadian experience class, we're going to see the country and employers and newcomers benefit from temporary foreign workers being allowed, for the first time, to apply for permanent residence from within this country. We're not going to give them all that experience, get them trained and get them used to living here, and then send them back home to wait for three to five years; we're going to keep them here with the skills.

The employers are investing in them now, people get to stay, and it's good for everybody.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

To follow up on that, one more point is that if we're looking at how people can legitimately come into the country, the provinces have the provincial nominee program. They can get people directly suited to the occupations or whatever they require. Then we have the off-campus work permit and the temporary foreign work permit, which I understand has been extended now from one year to two years. Something has also happened with the live-in caregiver program, and then there is the ability to apply within Canada to go forward. Would you agree with me that all of those speak to legitimate avenues, as opposed to trying to come in some other way?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

They are legitimate avenues....

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I have one minute left. I want to make sure we're not a long time here because I have such a line-up of speakers. You have one minute.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

They are legitimate avenues, and we are putting resources into processing them in a timely manner to respond to the needs of business, to keep business going, quite frankly.

Having got them here, having got them trained up...in some jobs it does take two years before you really get your feet underneath you. It would be a shame to lose those people, we believe, for all the wrong reasons. This is why we were introducing the Canadian experience class, so we can take advantage of those investments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Minister.

That completes our seven-minute round. We'll go to the five-minute round with Mr. Bevilacqua.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much, Minister, for your presentation.

I'm noting a statistic here: 70% of Canada's labour force growth comes from immigration. Between 2011 and 2015, 100% of our net labour force and population growth will come from immigration. Needless to say, I think you would ideally be the minister of perhaps one of the most powerful ministries in government. And what I hear from you is that you are having a bit of a challenge to get the resources you need.

That's of concern to me. It is of concern to me because above and beyond looking at supplementary estimates, which I guess we do at committee, I'm concerned about the fact that here we are, as Canadians, with an aging society, having to compete for skill shortages, not just domestically but I'm talking broadly, in the global village, and the global competition is stiffening as developing countries like India and China and others have an expanded middle class.

You have a phenomenal job ahead of you to attract people to Canada. On top of that, here you are--I can just imagine how you feel in cabinet--with these real challenges, and you have 800,000 unprocessed immigration applications. In other words, they're a barrier to entry more than anything else. Then, within your own domestic market, you have tensions between yourself and the Province of Ontario and a $100 million shortfall.

I don't know if you could even tell me how many foreign credentials have actually been accredited as a result of your foreign credentials referral office.

I feel for you, because I think your heart is in the right place, but if you are around the cabinet table and the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance are not recognizing the importance of immigration in Canada.... I mean, you said you require more resources, and I believe you. I think you do require more resources because you have some major challenges.

I'm simply wondering what kind of confidence we can have in a government that does not recognize the importance of immigration by not allocating the types of resources it requires.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

If I may, I'd like to take issue with some of those points. Some I will acknowledge. Yes, we do have challenges, no question. The single biggest challenge at the moment is the backlog we inherited from the previous government. It was allowed to balloon. We're looking at ways to address it in the longer term.

In the meantime, we're being successful at finding ways to continue to meet the labour market needs. We've invested extra money in the temporary foreign worker program. We're working with the provinces to meet their regional needs, which is extremely important. We've invested $1.3 billion in settlement funding, because there is no point in bringing all these people here if we don't help them adapt to this new environment.

The previous government kept those levels frozen for 10 years. Think about anything else where a price or an individual's salary has been frozen for 10 years. I call that a starving of resources, and that's one of the reasons the backlog was allowed to grow so high, because the resources weren't put to it.

Our government has been investing--in the FCRO to help people get to work, in temporary foreign workers. In terms of the foreign credentials referral office, its role is not and has never been to get people accredited. It's to help people find out how and where to get accredited. The accreditation process is part of the provincially licensed regulatory bodies.

I believe that our leadership role is to help people, particularly before they even get here, navigate through the labyrinth that exists in finding where and how to get their credentials assessed, so that having got them assessed before they even come here, they can use that time to upgrade their skills to close the gap between their skills and Canadian standards.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have half a minute.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

I have half a minute; I won't take longer than that.

I also want the minister to tell Canadians that not only did you inherit certain things, you also inherited a surplus. When I see how that surplus is being invested, I really, honestly, cannot see that immigration is a priority for this government, and I think statistics will prove me correct.

You can't have billions and billions of surpluses, a backlog as big as yours, and the competition that exists for global workers, and you and your government not invest more money. I'm not the one who said it needed more money; you said that, so I think you're in agreement with me.

I think this file, the immigration file, in the Conservative government needs to be pushed forward, because it's a very important issue facing Canadians. I think you, as minister, will have to fight a lot harder to get the type of funding and resources required so that immigration is taken seriously in this country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I'm sorry, I have to cut it off right there.

I have to go to Mr. Carrier, who has five minutes. I think that's pretty well going to do it for us.

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Finley, gentlemen and ladies.

I am a new member of the Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. It is a committee that has great significance for us as MPs.

You said that you were working very hard to help temporary workers become involved and adapt to the country as much as possible. You also have programs that assess the credentials of other categories of workers. But you have not talked about the problems of family reunification and refugees.

Our constituency offices often have to deal with problems like that. They see heart-wrenching cases: people who have been accepted as refugees, but whose children, for some peculiar reason, are still in their home country. We have all the difficulty in the world getting cooperation from your department on problems like that.

Let me tell you about one particular case. An Algerian lady was accepted as a resident in Canada, but her children were still in Algeria. So she wants to get them here. The embassy that deals with their file is in Paris. You can see the problem. The children's passports have to get to the embassy in Paris.

How can the children physically and financially handle all these immigration requirements? The requirements are important, but there are no resources to help people meet them. I was even ready, as an MP, to pay FedEx to take the passports to the embassy to get the process underway. Your department absolutely refused, saying that FedEx had no business shipping passports. Short of going to do the department's job ourselves, since it is not there on-site for cases like that, there are no resources.

I would like to hear what you have to say about that. Is it your intention to improve the services that we have to provide to people whom we have accepted as refugees here and are good citizens. It is important for them to be reunited with their families. If our own children were left in another country, on another continent, how would we handle it?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There's no question we want to help refugees. I believe all Canadians want to help legitimate refugees.

We've been working very closely with the UNHCR to do that and to make it as easy as possible on refugees, who are designated convention refugees, to come here. Canada is known around the world for the fairness of its refugee system.

Obviously, not knowing the details of individual cases, it would be difficult for me to make comments, but if you have some details we'd be happy to look at those. The deputy has a bit of background on that as well.

[Richard Fadden]

Usually, Mr. Chair, people living in a country where immigration services are not provided should be able to leave their documents at the Canadian embassy in their country; from there, they would be sent to the immigration section that could look after the matter.

As the minister requested, could you let us have the details? We can look into the specific circumstances of your case.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I just point out that we do not have an embassy in each country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Time is up, but we do have two minutes, so I can allow one minute, Mr. Batters. It's your turn for one minute--and a one-minute response.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

I'll try to do my best in one minute, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for your appearance before us, Minister, with your officials.

As a member of Parliament, I know one of the main areas we deal with is immigration-related concerns. I can say that from the time I took office in 2004, this was one of the main departments where problems existed and where, clearly, fixes needed to be undertaken. I commend you, Minister, and Minister Solberg before you, for all the initiatives you have undertaken to fight at the cabinet table to make these important fixes.

Since I only have one minute, I want to ask you this quickly. You recently went to India regarding a trip on foreign credentials. Can you tell me a bit about why you visited India, the places you visited, and what you learned over there? What was the importance of your trip to India, Minister?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have one minute, Minister.