Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2009

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to remind the deputy minister that it's not his department. It's a department of the government, a department of this country, so it's not his sole jurisdiction. He just happens to be the individual filling the chair at this moment.

I did not use the word “freeloader”. I said, sir, that you are alluding to them as freeloaders, and you agreed with me.

I take exception to that, sir, because a lot of people who have come to this country are seeking a better life. They're fleeing at the point of a gun. I'm seeing what is happening in Sri Lanka right now. People are fleeing. When this country overwhelmingly supports and accepts people who are refugees, having you, sir, bashing them in this forum is totally unacceptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I don't think he said that.

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, I am not bashing them; I'm bashing those who come to this country who are not refugees.

I agree with you absolutely. Whether I'm here or in another job six months from now, my department will be of the view that this country should continue to accept real refugees. Our problem is that a lot of them come to Canada and apply for status, and they aren't refugees. They apply for refugee status because we have a huge backlog on the other side, and we can't process people fast enough.

I want to be clear: I am not suggesting that this country should not accept genuine refugees. What I'm talking about are those who are not real refugees. There is a distinction, Mr. Chairman, I would submit.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, in all departments we have a level of appeal, be it for the Canada Pension Plan or the disability plan. You apply, you have the first appeal, you go in front of the referees, and then after that you can go in front of the umpire. It is the same thing with EI: you apply, you can go in front of the referees, and then you have the umpire. Even in WCB, the Workers' Compensation Board, in all the provinces you have the right to appeal.

Why in this instance are we taking the right of appeal from the people who want to appeal? Is it because they're not landed immigrants? Is it because they're not Canadians? Or is it that we don't want to have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as we enjoy it, the rest of us, also apply to them? In every other department we do. What is the problem if we also allow it here?

You're saying to me that you don't have resources and that you're going to have to take resources from everywhere else to put there. I say to you, Mr. Fadden, that your resources right now.... If you do an in-Canada spousal sponsorship, it takes four years. Well, your resources, sir, are not well managed to begin with anyway.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I don't know whether that was a question, but the time's up.

We'll go to Monsieur Paillé.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I would propose that we stop here, in view of the time and the turn the discussion is taking.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I have names on the list, Mr. Paillé, so....

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

If you have any other names, I agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We agreed. We had a vote, and it was agreed to continue with questions. I'm doing as the committee asked, and I have a list of people who want to speak.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

All right. In that case, I'm going to take my time to ask a question.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Chairman, perhaps one round was enough. When we held a vote to continue, it wasn't to do so indefinitely, but to continue the round.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Well, you know, you're here as a witness. If you want to come back and start talking on points of order, go sit over there. We're here to hear about your bill. You can submit that, but if you want to get into how the committee's going to operate, I would prefer that you come back. You can't do both.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I invite you to consult the clerk on that point. Being seated at this end of the table, I am still a member of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Do you have any more questions, Monsieur Paillé?

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Yes. Before asking my question, I would like to know whether it is possible in this case to vote again to determine whether committee members want to continue the discussion.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Yes, well done.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Do you have a question?

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I'm prepared to move a motion, if Mr. Paillé wants to. I know what his preference is and what my preference is. Rather than continue with questions, I have a motion I am prepared to put on the floor. It's a motion to refer, but I'll be under your jurisdiction, Mr. Chair, as to when I can move that motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Madam Chow, do you want to ask a question?

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

No, I don't have any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You don't have any questions.

Make your motion.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Chair, it's pretty obvious that we have a lot more questions. There are a lot more concerns related to this private member's bill. I appreciate the work and effort Mr. St-Cyr put into his presentation today. I certainly appreciate the work the deputy minister has done, as well. I think you've come well prepared.

There's a significant difference of opinion on the direction we want to take--the direction the government would like to take and obviously the direction some of the members of the opposition, including Mr. St-Cyr, have moved with the bill.

There are a lot more questions here than there are answers. I'm recommending that we refer this back to our steering committee and that the steering committee be given an opportunity to review how we move forward with this bill, Bill C-291.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That's a motion. Do you wish to speak to that motion?

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I just did, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We'll have Ms. Chow and then Monsieur St-Cyr.