Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 12th, 2009

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

That's fine.

In your statement, you talked about the importance of improving our laws and changing our policies so as to protect such people better. One of the proposals on which the committee gave an opinion and which it has often heard during consultations was aimed at enabling people who had been swindled by recruitment agencies charging illegal fees to be reimbursed. It has often been proposed that people who have had to pay recruitment fees to agencies—which are often abroad and thus difficult to monitor—be reimbursed first by the employer, who is the closest person, and then that the employer seek reimbursement from the agency he or she has dealt with. This would improve the chances of someone who has been swindled being reimbursed. Would you agree on such a measure?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I think there needs to be a number of reforms. Unfortunately--

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

But do you agree on this specific measure?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I think it's something that needs to be explored. I would have to examine further details for it. But for myself, before this issue, I had received a number of recommendations from caregivers' associations themselves and advocates to bring it forward to this particular committee and to our Liberal women's caucus, and I hope to do that.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

When an employer deals with an agency, don't you think that he or she should share the risk, assume responsibility? If this agency commits illegal acts, shouldn't the employer who made the conscious choice to deal with the agency also be held responsible? People who come from the other end of the world and who have dealt with agencies that may not even be based in Canada have no recourse if they've been swindled in their country of origin. If the local employer shared responsibility, people would have some recourse.

Don't you think it's a good idea?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I think it is very important to have regulations and measures in place that are going to protect, first and foremost, the worker and also the agency, but at the same time the employer. Because of the type of political scenario we're in, and this story has turned into a bit of a sensational story, all based on allegations, I have had so many employers call me, e-mail me, and say they are also victims in this. I think there's a great window. Aside from the fact that this case has been sensationalized, you also need to listen to the other hundreds of complaints that have come forward to try to come up with a system that's going to be effective and provide fairness.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Still, it's...

May I have five seconds more?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No, Monsieur St-Cyr.

Before we proceed with Ms. Mathyssen, Dr. Dhalla, you referred to notes when you were making your opening statement. Could you make that written statement available to the clerk?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I definitely will make all the documents available, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have seven minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Dhalla.

You made reference to allegations and innuendo, political and media motivations, and I'm wondering what exactly you are saying. What exactly are you alleging in regard to this theory that there are motivations beyond what perhaps are legitimate?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you for asking me that question.

The reason this was so difficult for myself and my family, and hurtful, is because it goes against the grain of everything I have championed as an individual.

Usually, when employees and employers, like all human beings, have any issues, they're either discussed at the particular time or immediately after the employment you will get feedback that this person was upset, or they'll contact you, or some sort of complaint will be made.

In this particular case, all three caregivers 15 months later have come forward with identical allegations, and the dates that these allegations are being made are dates personally against myself. There are times and dates mentioned when I wasn't even physically in the city. We all know that the meeting took place on April 25 between Minister Fonseca and Minister Wynne. There was not only this case, but there were 29 other cases that were discussed. On the 26th, a meeting took place with Minister Jason Kenney. I don't know what the dynamics of that meeting were. I don't know who was present at that meeting. But I do know that I saw Mr. Kenney on the 26th, because we actually had a Vaisaikhi parade and he was accompanied by my Conservative opponent. He was also accompanied by his staff members. So I don't know who participated in the subsequent meetings afterwards.

One does not know who has been in contact with whom. When we take a look at Minister Kenney's statements that took place on Question Period on CTV and were subsequently documented by media reports, in particular in The Globe and Mail, it states very clearly that the department officials have promised these three women, or the two women--I don't know how many--that the time spent at the Dhalla residence will be counted toward their permanent residency.

Today, when the question was asked to the women, have you ever met with Minister Kenney or with any other department officials, they deny meeting with any other department officials. So I don't know why Mr. Kenney, as the minister--

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Point of order.

If you're going to make statements, you have to make sure they're true, Ruby.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I'm guessing. She asked me for my opinion. I'm just giving my opinion.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That's not a point of order.

Carry on, Dr. Dhalla.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you.

So I don't know. Minister Kenny is stating, on the one hand, that the department officials have met with them and have given them assurances of permanent residency, and the women are saying no one has met with them. As an individual, I just very sincerely hope—and I don't know the facts, and I don't know for sure—that my name and my family's name is not being used in any way, shape, or form to gain permanent residency into Canada. As members of Parliament, we all want to help Canadians, we want to help constituents, but I think all of us would feel as I do, as a victim, if we were being exploited.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

If an employer is found to have abused a caregiver, broken the law, transgressed the rights of that individual, there is provision for a jail term or fine, or both. Should these employers be prosecuted to the full extent of the law?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I think it is a responsibility of every Canadian citizen, regardless of who they are, to abide by the law.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Should they be prosecuted, then?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

They should go through due process, and the outcomes of that due process, either through legal proceedings or whatever the due process is, should definitely be respected, yes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I notice you made reference to documents. You had a statement, and I believe it was a statement that you said Ms. Tongson signed. Did she write that document, or simply sign that?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

She signed that document.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So who wrote it?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

My mother.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is this usual practice? Why would you have this kind of documentation?