Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 12th, 2009

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

No. I'm getting a little bit confused as to the stories. When the allegations first came out and were brought forward to me by the Toronto Star reporter, the first set of questions I believe said that Ms. Gordo had claimed that I had held her passport for two weeks. Today in the testimony that was provided under oath by Ms. Gordo, she states that she never gave the passports at all. So I don't know which version is correct, whether she's stating or making the allegation that the passports were held for two weeks or whether she's saying I never took them.

The fact of the matter is, in the eleven days of Ms. Gordo's employment I was only physically in the GTA for three of those days.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

So there was no other documentation at all that was given to you?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Nothing.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Dhalla. It's good to see you.

You said something in your testimony that caught my attention. You said that Ms. Tongson tried to impersonate you at HRSDC. Could you elaborate on that, please?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

The incident that happened in regard to that is I was actually in Ottawa that day, I believe, and nobody was home. Ms. Tongson received a phone call at home, picked up the phone. About an hour later my brother received a phone call, because he was the employer. Ms. Mendes was asking who was the employer, and when you take a look at the official documents my name is nowhere to be found; it is Neil Dhalla's. Neil Dhalla received a phone call from HRSDC asking him if he only had one sister. “Yes, I do”, he said. The person on the other end of the line I believe said something along the lines of “Is that Ruby Dhalla?” He said, “Yes, it is.” She said, “Oh, I thought so, because someone with a Filipino accent picked up the phone when we called your home line and claimed to be your sister.”

I believe that information was documented by HRSDC. My brother is in the process of receiving those documents. I was hoping to havethat before committee today, but we have not received them from HRSDC as of yet. As soon as those documents are received, I hope they will identify that the impersonation was done, and I can forward that to all committee members.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I want to go back to another two things very quickly.

It's clear that you said Ms. Gordo did not give you any documents. Ms. Tongson claimed that on March 15 she gave all documents to you, Ruby Dhalla, to hold and that you held them for a couple of weeks. Could you clarify that with respect to Ms. Tongson?

That's one question. I'll just give you two, because I seem to be running out of time for this round.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have 30 seconds to answer it.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Never mind; please answer the question and I'll come back to you later.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Ms. Gordo at first said that the passport was held for two weeks, then again today--

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm sorry, I'm asking about Ms. Tongson.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Yes, but the testimony of Ms. Gordo switched today, and she's saying that she never gave the passports. Ms. Tongson, who states that the passports were given to me, actually signed documentation, which I will provide proof of to the committee. It states, if I can just read it,

I, Richelyn Tongson, am working...at 1078 Haydon Bridge Court.... I gave...my papers and passport to Dr. Neil Dhalla....

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

When was that signed? Could you give us the date?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

No, but there is a signed document when she received them:

I received my passport and all my papers back on May 29 at 7:20 p.m. from Dr. Neil Dhalla.

I don't know why there was confusion going on in regard to the testimony and the allegations that are being made by the caregivers.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Dr. Dhalla.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Dhalla, for being here today.

If I understand correctly, you say that you were not the direct employer of these people. Still, you are obviously aware of what is going on. You documented evidence which in your opinion confirms what you are claiming. You so admit that this was taking place in your home. Therefore, I imagine that, as a good responsible person, you were no doubt at least somewhat aware of what was going on in your home.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

To be honest with you, I lead a very busy lifestyle. Many of my friends and family members who know me.... I have not even gone to my cousin's house, and she's owned that place for quite a while. My interaction with them was very limited.

To be honest, my mom is usually home by herself. In the limited interaction that I did have with these women, my mom would lie on one couch and watch TV, and the caregiver would be lying on the couch beside her also watching TV. I saw many times in my home, in the limited interaction that I had.... Usually it's the caregiver who takes care of the person who needs the help, but my mom would actually be cooking her dinner. My mom would actually be making food for her.

In terms of how they were treated, these allegations have come as a shock, because they were treated with love, compassion, care, and respect. Anyone who has ever gone into my home can vouch for that.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I know that you have a busy life. You realize of course that this is the case of the 12 members sitting around this table. You talk about your sanctuary, your house; so you must be somewhat aware of what is happening.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

They were treated, from what I saw in a limited interaction, with love, care, and respect. I was not the employer, and I was not the sponsor, sir.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

The people who have testified tell us they were paid cash for the services they provided. Is that right?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Yes.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

We were told about amounts of over $3,500 in some cases. What led you, you or your brother, the employer, whoever, to pay workers cash?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I wasn't the employer or sponsor. When you take a look at all of the receipts and the documentation as well, the payments were made by my mother. I can tell you, because I inquired further, why that was done. The caregivers did not want cheques, as they did not have bank accounts. I heard the question of Ms. Gordo, who apparently was paid after she had left. The reason she was paid after she had left and not on that day is that she demanded cash, and my mom didn't have the cash on her. My mom said she would pay them by cheque, but these women refused to take any type of cheque payment.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

You state therefore that you paid them cash at their request. That didn't sound an alarm for you or for anyone else in your family? It wasn't a problem that workers were demanding to be paid cash?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I think we have to go back to my original statement, from when I first spoke. The fact and the reality of the matter is that I was not their employer, and I was not their sponsor. I was not involved in giving them any payments. When you take a look at all of the documented receipts that we have, which we can provide to the committee, every single documented receipt has my mother's handwriting, and it clearly states that the payments were made by Mrs. Tavinder Dhalla, and they have been signed by the caregivers themselves.