Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 14th, 2009

[Agatha Mason]

Yes.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Chair, I'd like to share my time with Ms. Mendes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You've got about two minutes left, so two minutes, Ms. Mendes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I would like to know in how many cases caregivers who have been brought to your attention have had formal complaints filed in any court or institution.

[Agatha Mason]

In any court or institution....

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

The provincial labour level, or federal level.

[Agatha Mason]

Do you want me to give you a number?

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

If you have any idea...percentages, 20%, 10%, 100%?

[Agatha Mason]

Based on the number of complaints we've had, I would say conservatively 40% in terms of direct intervention, probably another 40% of referrals to legal people or agencies, and 20% in terms of what we deal with and get results.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

So for formal complaints with your assistance, you'd say about 40%.

[Agatha Mason]

Yes. Just as I said, the vast majority of clients that we see come in with complaints. They don't come to us just for routine--

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

No, no, absolutely, I understand that. But are those complaints usually directed at the provincial labour code or the immigration law?

[Agatha Mason]

It varies. The majority of them, I would say, are violations of Ontario's Employment Standards Act.

In terms of immigration, we wouldn't know it's an immigration issue until a client, say, applies for landed status and misrepresentation is cited. That's when we would know about it. But in terms of the process itself, we don't handle those processes. Once it becomes a situation regarding immigration, Immigration Canada deals with that, because people are applying for open permits and landed immigrant status.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Paillé.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Paillé, I apologize.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

First, thank you for being here. If I have any time left, I will hand over to Mr. St-Cyr. But since he wasted your time, I won't dare ask him to continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Be good.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

You said you wonder how you could get reimbursed for the $10,000 that some agencies charge, which is often paid in cash.

Why does anyone have to pay that kind of amount? Is it paid in cash?

[Agatha Mason]

I don't know for sure. The trend has been that agencies recruit caregivers overseas who want to come to Canada. Most of them promise the caregivers an employer on arrival, and that has not been the case. In fact, the trend for the last year has been one of caregivers coming here and it's almost become a cliché to hear of them being “released upon arrival”.

I can only assume the reason they take cash is that it's a way of making the money untraceable. That's my judgment.

I am not sure what the money is paid for. I have asked that question of caregivers: when you pay that money upfront, are you given a contract saying this is what I'm paying for? It varies. In some instances, the agencies offer a package that would include the airfare. In some instances, the caregivers pay just to get employed.

Two days ago I received an e-mail from someone overseas who said they had paid $5,000, and they were trying to make a phone call and the number was not in service. So they wanted me to check to see if that agency existed in Toronto.

So it varies.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

All right.

I understand why some people who enter the country don't have a bank account. In general, do employers pay workers in cash when they arrive in Canada?

[Agatha Mason]

For the caregivers who go through our orientation program, I usually advise them to open an account. They can open an account, and most caregivers do have an account. I advise them usually to take cheques, or to get a pay slip that would indicate the gross pay and the deductions, so they have these as proof in case they're no longer with that employer and they want to prove that the record of employment they've given is accurate.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Apart from the recommendation, do you see this proposal being made by the workers, or is there a problem opening an account, as a result of which employers generally pay in cash? Do you know how many people are paid in cash and how many have a bank account so that they can cash a cheque?

[Agatha Mason]

In our experience, the number of caregivers who usually receive money in cash varies. It's a situation in which the employer chooses to pay them in cash. Most of the time it's a situation in which the employer is waiting on authorization to employ that caregiver.

In situations like that, our stand has always been to say to the caregiver that if an employer chooses to employ you illegally, it means that the employer is breaking the law, but when you accept that employment, it means that you are also breaking the law. I say to them that it's a risk, because I know most caregivers look forward to the day when they become landed immigrants. In some instances an employer would say, “I want to see what you can do in a probationary period before I employ you”, which also is not right and is illegal, and I say to caregivers that if an employer pays you by cash and that person is employing you illegally, there is no trace of payment. What happens usually when employees or caregivers apply for landed status is that if the record of employment shows that they were working during the period when they were not authorized to work, it jeopardizes their chance of getting landed status, so I usually advise caregivers not to take that risk.

The reality is, though, that someone who comes here sometimes has no relatives or very little support. If they are offered a place to stay, there are very few alternatives in terms of choices, so they will choose to stay at that employer and condone the illegal act.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Merci, Monsieur Paillé.

Go ahead, Ms. Grewal.