Evidence of meeting #22 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was child.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ken Neal  As an Individual
Don Chapman  Lost Canadian Organization
Marcel Gélinas  As an Individual
Naeem  Nick) Noorani (Founder/Publisher, Canadian Immigrant Magazine
Jacqueline Scott  As an Individual
Dorinda Cavanaugh  Director, Terre des hommes - Pour les enfants et Terre des hommes Ontario
Allan Nichols  Executive Director, Concerned Group Representative, Canadian Expat Association
Sandra Forbes  Executive Director, Children's Bridge
Sarah Pedersen  Acting Executive Director, Adoption Council of Canada
Andrew Bilski  Concerned adoptive parent, As an Individual

June 11th, 2009 / 9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning.

This is the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, meeting 22, Thursday, June 11, 2009. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are undertaking a review of the subject matter of Bill C-37, An Act to amend the Citizenship Act, enacted in the second session of the 39th Parliament.

We have quite a few witnesses before us today. We have a number who are present and one who is going to be giving testimony from Vancouver via the telephone.

We have Mr. Don Chapman before us of the Lost Canadian Organization. We have several individuals--Jacqueline Scott, Marcel Gélinas, and Ken Neal. We have, from Vancouver, Nick Noorani, who is the publisher of Canadian Immigrant magazine.

I must say that I haven't had one of those where we are communicating by telephone, but we'll do our best. I hope that will work okay.

Ladies and gentlemen who are witnesses, you each have five minutes to make a presentation. Then members of the committee will ask you questions.

We will start off with Mr. Neal.

9:05 a.m.

Ken Neal As an Individual

Good morning. My name is Ken Neal, from Portland, Oregon. I'm here today to testify on behalf of my daughter, Casey, who is two years old. It was just a bit too much of a flight for her to make today.

I'm a very large proponent of the second generation of Bill C-37. I'm the first generation. My mom was recognized years after she was moved and stripped of her citizenship unrightfully. She has recently been brought back as a Canadian citizen, and my citizenship is going to be recognized by Bill C-37, on which there aren't forms yet.

That leaves my daughter out in the cold. Because she's second generation, Bill C-37 doesn't quite fit. Yet, under my uncle, who has a daughter and a granddaughter, the granddaughter is recognized--because of gender discrimination, we believe.The father can pass down citizenship through the family, and yet the mother cannot. I'm on my mother's side, and therefore I cannot pass it down.

9:05 a.m.

Don Chapman Lost Canadian Organization

Can I interject a little bit?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

No, I'm sorry. We're really pressed for time, Mr. Chapman. I don't mean to be rude to you, but we have to allow Mr. Neal to proceed.

Go ahead, sir.

9:05 a.m.

As an Individual

Ken Neal

Basically, I'm just asking for gender equality. It would be fair. It would be right. I don't want my daughter to have citizenship, I want her to have the right to citizenship. That way it can be her decision, not mine--or anybody else's.

Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Neal.

Mr. Gélinas, thank you, sir, for coming. You have up to five minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Marcel Gélinas As an Individual

I was born in Canada and I live in the United States now.

I would prefer Don Chapman to tell my story. He knows it as well as I do.

May I do that?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Sure. We'll give Mr. Chapman your five minutes.

Mr. Chapman, you have 10 minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Lost Canadian Organization

Don Chapman

Okay.

Let me start by saying that what we're working on today goes back to 1868.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, could you just clarify this for me?

This gentleman had five minutes to speak. You're allowing him to transfer his time to someone else, to give him ten minutes to speak?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I am.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Okay.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Chapman. Proceed.

9:05 a.m.

Lost Canadian Organization

Don Chapman

Thank you.

We're going back to the year 1868, when the first form of Canadian identity came into play. It was called the Canadian Nationals Act. It was written by the British, and almost all British colonies had the same language. This is the language that we're working on today: “married women, minors, lunatics, and idiots, shall be classified under the same disability for their national status”.

Now, I want you to remember that citizenship didn't actually begin until January 1, 1947. It was the first time that women had the right of citizenship, but they had less rights than men.

You're seeing this with Mr. Neal and all of these cases of major gender discrimination, things that have been through the Supreme Court of Canada and are currently being ignored by the citizenship minister. These were unanimous Supreme Court decisions, saying that you can't do this—and we're doing it. In the case of Mr. Neal, his mother was not recognized as a Canadian for 44 years.

In testimony before the Senate five years ago, I mentioned the Benner case, which was Benner v. Canada. I mention this case in particular because it dealt with gender discrimination.

It said that the 1947 Citizenship Act was blatantly discriminatory and contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and that all foreign-born children of a Canadian parent had the right of Canadian citizenship. What was being done was that Canadian women could not pass citizenship on to their children, while Canadian men could. That is what happened to Mr. Neal.

So I made the comment that, based on the Benner decision, a unanimous Supreme Court decision that said all foreign-born children of a Canadian parent had the right of citizenship, therefore, had I been born outside of Canada, I would be a Canadian and so would my children. Every senator sat scratching their head, saying, “This makes no sense, because now we're discriminating against Canadian-born children.”

A week after I made that testimony, Patricia Birkett, acting director general of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, came to the Senate. She said they were terminating the Supreme Court decision.

That's something that's really interesting to me. For five years, you've gone completely contrary to the Supreme Court.

There was another court case, Babcock v. Canada, that came in after this. They upheld the Supreme Court decision.

At the same time, we have major gender discrimination going on today. So not only was he denied citizenship, but now his daughter is being denied citizenship based on gender. Jacquie's case is based on gender. Marcel was born in Canada to a Canadian mother and a U.S. father.

Now, we can go back to gender discrimination. The mother of Joseph Volpe, who was immigration minister, was stripped of her status because she married an Italian. That used to be the law. If we go around this table, I can tell you that in the 1940s, Asians, Indo, and native aboriginals couldn't vote in this country. There were a lot of bad laws, and we're operating right now with one.

Bill C-37 is a wonderful bill. I'm sorry I don't have the time to go into it. I'm the head guy behind this bill. I know all the ins and outs. I know where you have to go and how you can correct this bill, very simply, for second generations born abroad and everything else, but we don't have the time go into it.

Right now, this government and, in particular, this immigration minister, are not doing justice to the reputation of this country.

This magazine is two years old. It's the Refugees magazine. It comes from the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. It talks about the strange, hidden world of the stateless and the countries that make their people stateless. And every country in here is a third world country, except for this country, dead centre, called Canada. Did you know they compared Canada's human rights record with that of Zimbabwe, Vietnam, and Bangladesh?

We are the lost Canadians, and there are 10,000 of us. The Department of Homeland Security just came out and said there were 240,000 of us just in the U.S.—and that doesn't count the children produced by lost Canadians, or the children of children.

We know as a fact that there are upwards of 200,000 just in Canada. Marlene Jennings—I see her name over there--got questioned on whether she was a Canadian, and, I can tell you, probably she was not. She took out an Italian passport in January of 1977. That would cancel her citizenship.

What Ken was trying to say is that there are two little girls here, cousins. His daughter is being denied citizenship because his daughter's connection is through his mother, a woman. The cousin is being welcomed into Canada because the connection is through a man.

Marcel Gélinas was born in Canada in 1922. As I say, he took, if you will, his father's identity. The United States gave him citizenship. He didn't know this. He was a soldier in World War II. Although he happened to be in the United States, he went to war. He didn't care; he just signed up and went to war and fought. Apparently, today they're denying him citizenship, based on the fact, saying “You're not Canadian”.

This man, Guy Vallière, died just two or three months ago. He was a Canadian soldier born in Canada. He fought for Canada, and he was denied citizenship. He died disenfranchised from his own country, despite the fact that on camera with the CBC on April 10, just over a year ago, Diane Finley said we will grant subsection 5(4) citizenship grants to all these lost Canadians. She said, “It is the right thing to do for the right reasons.”

We have Jacquie, who's about to go to judicial review against the Government of Canada. Yet we have the Conservative government saying that in the Taylor case, which is the exact copy of Jacquie's case—we've already won it, and ended up settling before a Supreme Court decision—it would cost tens of billions of Canadian taxpayer dollars to settle this case. She's about to go to judicial review.

I've tried to meet with this minister; he won't call me. I tried to call Mr. Dykstra; no return phone calls.

I'm an airline pilot. We go into accident investigation, such as Air France's, as to why something happened. The minister or Mr. Dykstra need to meet with me. We can fix this in a matter of weeks.

One person, and only one person, was granted a subsection 5(4) citizenship grant as promised, and that was the last remaining World War I veteran. The reason he got it is that I met with one of the leaders...the former leader of the opposition, at the time the Conservatives, and he went to the Prime Minister and said, “This could really hurt us”, because, see, the Prime Minister took a lot of flak for not flying the flag at half-mast over Parliament when soldiers died.

Well, the last remaining World War I soldier is an American. He left Canada in 1920. When Bill C-37 was passed, so that this man would have a state funeral, there were 90,000 signatures from the Dominion Institute.

To make sure this would not be a black mark, with a Prime Minister saying we cannot give this man a state funeral, they did every bit of paperwork in 21 days.

In the meantime, we have 71 people remaining, of whom 65 were the wrong religion, so they were denied citizenship based on the religion. We were promised that these people would get in. I'm here to hold you accountable, to say, “Come on, folks.”

If you ever want the real history of this bill, I've been at it since I was 18, and I'm going to be turning 55. I am the guy behind this. I have worked with ministers all over the place in this, and I have never worked with a minister of this low quality.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, sir. We've run out of time.

I'll turn to Mr. Nick Noorani, who is in Vancouver.

Can you hear us, sir?

9:15 a.m.

Naeem Nick) Noorani (Founder/Publisher, Canadian Immigrant Magazine

Yes, I can. Thank you very much.

Good morning to all.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning to you. Thank you for helping us with this. You have five minutes to make a presentation to the committee.

9:15 a.m.

Naeem (Nick) Noorani

Thank you.

On April 17, 2009, a new law amending the Citizenship Act came into effect granting Canadian citizenship to certain people who lost it due to lack of provisions in the act. The citizenship is automatic and retroactive to the day the person was born or lost citizenship, depending on the situation. The recognition of these lost Canadians as citizens is overdue, and reflects well on Canada’s humanitarian reputation and traditions.

The new act draws the line of what constitutes a lost Canadian at second- or later-born-generation Canadians. While such grandchildren and great grandchildren of Canadian citizens would no doubt like to hold onto their rights to citizenship, we must draw the line somewhere as to who is a Canadian. We demean what being Canadian means by giving this privilege to so-called citizens of convenience, who wish to benefit from Canadian citizenship without offering this country anything in return, unlike those who were born here, reside in this country, or choose it as their adopted homeland.

Louis LaFontaine, the great co-founder of the union that would eventually lead to our Confederation, had this to say about being Canadian when addressing his electors at Terrebonne in 1848:

Canada is the land of our ancestors. It is our country as it must be the adopted country of the different peoples which come from around the globe, to make their way into its vast forests to build their homes and place their hopes. Like us, their paramount desire must be the happiness and prosperity of Canada. This is the heritage which they should endeavour to transmit to their descendants in this young and hospitable country. Above all, their children must be like us, Canadians.

This historic statement clearly outlines that the requirement for being Canadian is to have the paramount desire for the happiness and prosperity of Canada, and this heritage should be transmitted to future generations. To me, Canadian citizenship is not a family heirloom that can be passed on indefinitely from generation to generation. It comes with a price tag that increases its intrinsic value.

The granting of Canadian citizenship allows the holder access to Canada’s social and economic benefits, and should parents of the second generations have no links to Canada, they should lose this privilege. Canada is not a convenient safe harbour for someone who has tenuous links to this country. We have to draw the line for the future of our country, and people who do not have a connection to Canada should not benefit from the advantages that citizenship brings.

What is talked about in whispers in dark corridors is the rampant abuse of our citizenship by those who really don’t care about our home and native land; people who several generations later claim a right that is so tenuous, but want Canada’s socio-economic advantages as a right. I do not wish to point out any particular group, but I guess we have all heard of this happening. This marriage of convenience must stop or it will drain our country of our economic strength.

I support Bill C-37 with some caveats. My concern is the several countries around the world that, in spite of the fact they employ Canadians as temporary labour, do not bestow statehood on newborns, resulting in a generation that could be stateless in principle. This would be more critical if both the parents were Canadians. The fact that they have Canadian ancestry should allow them to have Canadian citizenship. This is the humanitarian engagement and compassion that Canada is famous for around the world. In the United Kingdom, the Home Secretary may register a child of parents who are British by descent as a British citizen under discretionary provisions if the child is stateless. However, I have been given to understand by a CIC spokesperson that in such a case, the parents can apply for a grant that would allow the child to get Canadian residency.

As a contracting state to the United Nations Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, Canada should make efforts to ensure that the provisions for stateless would-be Canadians are clear and not cumbersome for officers making decisions on such cases. Uncertainty around this issue could lead to inefficiencies and backlogs in the courts on such decisions.

The bill also states that government workers and Canadian Forces personnel are exempted from the second-generation clause. I propose that this be extended to people working with Canadian non-profit organizations, and charities like the Red Cross.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Noorani, thank you very much.

Ms. Scott, you have up to five minutes. Thank you for coming.

9:20 a.m.

Jacqueline Scott As an Individual

Thank you.

My name is Jacqueline Ellis Scott, and I am still a lost Canadian. I have been fighting for five years to be able to legally say I'm a Canadian citizen.

I was born in England in 1945 to a Canadian serviceman father and a British war bride mother. Mum and I joined my father in Toronto in January 1948, prior to the suspension in March 1948 of government-sponsored travel for war brides and children of servicemen. PC 858 allowed for deferred or delayed entry if a medical condition would prove dangerous or unsafe for an individual to travel. I had such a condition that was corrected just before leaving for Canada.

My crime is that I was born out of wedlock. I was never told of the circumstances of my birth. I found out on my own several years later. For my and my parents' generation, it was a stigma to have a child, or to be born, out of wedlock, and it was never a topic of discussion. It was kept secret.

My parents married in May 1948, and remained married until my father's death in 1995. Because of the discrimination of my birth, CIC is discriminating against me based on gender, labelling me “illegitimate” even in today's society, contrary to Federal Court orders issued in cases that have been appealed and won because of this type of discrimination. If the gender discrimination perpetuated by the marriage penalty is corrected, as ordered by the courts, then my citizenship is by right of descent through my father.

I grew up in Canada, was educated, worked, paid taxes, married here. My daughter was born in Toronto as a Canadian citizen, as are my grandchildren. My parents are buried here. I voted in Canadian federal elections. Tell me, don't you have to be a citizen to vote? By allowing me to vote, wasn't Canada affirming the fact that I am Canadian?

I never had any reason to doubt my Canadian citizenship. All my family, including my mother, who was naturalized in 1955, is Canadian. I was never told that I was anything but, and I was, and still am in my heart, a proud Canadian. I take pride when I hear the Canadian national anthem. Canada will always be my home. It's where my heart is and it's where I feel connected, yet CIC says I have no substantial ties to Canada. It should review paragraph 16(b) of the 1993 citizenship regulation criteria before it makes that statement.

In 2004 I applied for my citizenship certificate. In 2005 I received a denial of that application based on the fact that I was born out of wedlock. I wanted to hide that letter. The shock, the embarrassment, the shame I felt cannot adequately be described: it was demeaning. In 2008 I applied for a special grant of citizenship, and again, in a letter received in March 2009, signed by Stephane LaRue, was denied for the same reason.

Canada prides itself on not discriminating. Isn't this discrimination and denial of my rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Justice Mosley stated, in allowing Augier's appeal in 2004, that it is demeaning and prejudicial to deny benefit to citizenship through his Canadian father, simply because he was born out of wedlock. He declared paragraph 5(2)(b) to be unconstitutional. Why is CIC blatantly violating and discriminating, dismissing a court order?

In 2004 the minister did not comply with the order of the Federal Court to amend paragraph 5(2)(b) of the 1985 act, to include the words “or a father who is a citizen” and remove the phrase “born out of wedlock”. Since the minister at that time did not comply with the order of the Federal Court, will Minister Kenney remedy this omission?

Not until 2005, when I was first denied my citizenship certificate, had I ever been told that I was not a Canadian citizen. During that application process, I learned of and saw for the first time a landing document including me. In Benner, it was ruled that in applying section 15 of the charter, it's the time an application is first considered and right to citizenship is denied. That being the case, since I was first denied in 2005, my charter rights are being violated by CIC. Applying the charter is neither retroactive nor retrospective.

My situation is similar to that of Joe Taylor's. Where we differ is that I remained in Canada from the age of two until well after my 24th birthday, and he and his mother returned to England when he was still an infant. Therefore, I should not be subjected to the lost provision in the act, as he was. He was given a special grant of citizenship in 2008 with the passage of Bill C-37. I believe he is possibly deemed a Canadian citizen from 1947.

Why was I denied by CIC? Why is Joe Taylor now a citizen and I'm not? Why isn't Mr. Kenney honouring the promise made by Diane Finley to handle those cases not covered by Bill C-37 via subsection 5(4)?

Mr. Kenney recently said that he believes individuals want Canadian citizenship so that they will have the convenience of a passport. That word “convenience” is his and not mine.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Ms. Scott.

I'm sorry to cut you all off, but we're really pressed for time.

The rules are that each caucus will have seven minutes to ask questions of the four of you before us here today, together with Mr. Noorani out in Vancouver.

The first person to ask questions is Mr. Karygiannis.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you.

My question goes to Mr. Noorani.

Can you hear me, sir?

9:25 a.m.

Naeem (Nick) Noorani

Yes, I can.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

You are the publisher of a magazine. Correct?

9:25 a.m.

Naeem (Nick) Noorani

That is correct.