Evidence of meeting #26 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claudette Deschênes  Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Les Linklater  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Back to the visitor visas, whether it's from Mexico or Cuba, we are still seeing in Havana, for example, a 69% approval rate, which means one out of three are being turned down. I come back to the whole notion that because it is so opaque, people have no idea. Each time they apply, they put in $75, which is non-refundable. As a result, people wonder, is it the dollar amount they make back home or is it a good job? I've seen people who have good jobs, and I have seen people who have families, and I've seen people who have real estate or own several companies, yet they're still being turned down for a visitor visa.

So if you put visa requirements on Mexico, for example, you have to have a very clear and transparent process. If not, people will ask whether it's just to make money, because every time they apply, they end up paying $75. In England and Australia, their appeal process is free—which is why they're getting a lot of visitors. So why would you not put in an appeal process so that at least the decisions are made on law and fact and are not, seemingly, subjective decisions?

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

An enormous number of people want to come to Canada. There are millions of people who would like to visit here. In some of those cases, our visa officers decide that there's not sufficient evidence that the person is likely to return, so they make a negative decision.

I should point out that there is access to an appeal process. People who are rejected can make an application for redress—

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

To a federal court.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

—to a federal court.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

That takes, what, a year? You just talked about how long it takes, and it's very costly.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

It is in part because of the potential for judicial review that I think our visa officers are very conscientious. We have a global visa acceptance rate of 80%. It is true that it's lower in some countries by definition.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Why?

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

In some countries, you will have a higher number of applicants who have little or no economic connection.

Claudette, you deal with this every day. Would you like to elaborate?

10:40 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Claudette Deschênes

Basically the issue is that the visa officer has to look at the intent behind it. Of course, when you're looking at intent--

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

How do you judge intent?

10:40 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Claudette Deschênes

It's very difficult, and that's why we might not agree on the decision, but certainly in some countries the push factors to try to leave that country and come to Canada and stay illegally are big. In some countries, the economic--

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Do you have a standard?

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Ms. Chow, we have to end this somehow. Thank you.

I'm going to move on to Mr. Dykstra.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Very good.

This is becoming habitual. Olivia asks more questions than the time allowed for answers.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Dykstra, everybody has been over today by a long shot.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I know. It's because we're all so eager to get back here and start working. But we have to allow the people we have here as witnesses—if it's the minister, or staff from the ministry, or anyone else—the opportunity to respond. That's why we're asking them to be here. We can debate this issue amongst ourselves pretty much any time. That was my point.

One of the issues I see, certainly, was brought up by Mr. Young--the issues in his riding with respect to Pakistan. I'm from the Niagara community, and certainly I've have had a number of requests regarding the plight of individuals—Iraqi Christians, for example. One of the decisions and reasons we have moved in the direction we have with respect to visas for Mexico and the Czech Republic has to do with the fact that we have people who are legitimately, in countries right now, demanding, hoping, and have their expectations risen with respect to seeking asylum here in Canada. One of the connections that hasn't been made yet today—and I wonder if you can comment on this, Minister—is the fact that we have people in other countries who simply are in a terrible plight and who do seek asylum here in Canada. We have tried to work through this process with Mexico and the Czech Republic. I wonder if you can comment and connect those two things together.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that follows through from Mr. St-Cyr's questions.

We want to be a country that is open to providing protection to victims of persecution and violence. That is our best tradition, it's in our national character, and we do just that. We do it better, virtually, than any other country that I'm aware of in the world. I make no apologies for this country's approach to refugees, to victims of persecution. This year we will land in Canada, as permanent residents, more than 10,000 people who have been determined by the United Nations to be refugees. The majority of them are government-assisted refugees who we will help to establish in Canada, and about a quarter of them are privately sponsored refugees who—like the Vietnamese boat people 30 years ago—will be settled with the assistance of local communities, such as parishes and community organizations.

This is a tremendous thing, Mr. Chairman. There are countries substantially larger than Canada that receive substantially fewer resettled refugees. Having said that, we in Canada, with a population of 33 million, are not in a position to welcome all of the world's refugees and certainly not all at once. There are more than 10 million refugees in UN camps abroad, and there are tens of millions of people who could probably make legitimate asylum claims in a system like Canada's. We cannot practically take that entire global burden on our shoulders. We do far more than our share, according to Abraham Abraham, the representative of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees here in Canada.

Our government is contributing more to global refugee relief than any government in the history of Canada. We have increased, effectively, our operational target for resettlement of refugees to Canada this year, in part, as Mr. Dykstra has indicated, through our program for refugees in the Middle East, most of whom will be Iraqi, many of whom are persecuted because of their religion. In fact, for this and each of the two subsequent years, we will be receiving 3,900 refugees from that region, mostly from Iraq. That's more than any other country in the world, except the United States, and it's far more in absolute terms than any other country. We are receiving, over the course of a number of years, 5,000 refugees from the Burmese Karen population who have been living in camps on the border between Thailand and Burma. We're receiving 5,000 Bhutanese Hindus who have been sitting in refugee camps in Nepal. We're receiving thousands of Rohingya Muslims who have been sitting in UN refugee camps in Bangladesh.

Mr. Chairman, we are doing what we can, but if we really want to take the approach Mr. St-Cyr wants and just open the doors to a flood of asylum claimants, someone has to pay for that. There is finite capacity for us to accept a certain number of people in a year. Yes, we have the highest relative level of immigration of permanent residents in the developed world at 0.8% of population, but we cannot increase that by orders of magnitude and resettle people here successfully. There are limits to how many people we can house. Take the example of the Roma claimants in the Toronto area. According to reports I've received, public housing facilities were overflowing in the spring and summer of this year when we were seeing as much as half of the passengers on direct flights from Prague making asylum claims.

There are practical limits to our generosity. I'm simply saying that we need to be soft-hearted but hard-headed about the balance between our generosity and the practical limits of the number of people we can accept. We have no apologies to make in this regard. Let me say that in any refugee reform package that I bring forward to Parliament, I would like to see an increase in the number of people we resettle to this country who are defined by the UN to be refugees. I think we can only responsibly make that undertaking if we can reduce the incentive for abuse for people to come—they cost our taxpayers at least $29,000 per case. This is not free. The kind of abuse that we were seeing from particular source countries earlier this year costs our taxpayers. Those are dollars that could be going to help real victims of real persecution around the world. I think we need to get our priorities right.

Being in government and being in public service is about making choices, and I choose to prioritize real victims of persecution over immigrants coming through the back door of our asylum system.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Ms. Mendes.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, after what you've just told us about Canada's priorities, I would like to know whether, in the immediate future, you intend to include in your plans or priorities the possibility of granting temporary resident visas for multiple entries. We have major problems with the families of our citizens who live outside the country and who come here regularly. I think that visa would be a more effective way to manage the system. Visitor permits could be granted for a period of five or 10 years, which would enable those individuals to come to Canada a number of times. The United States is proceeding in this manner, and the results are relatively positive. Perhaps we could imitate them. That would be of enormous help to the families of Canadian citizens of foreign origin.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

We are encouraging the issue of visas for multiple entries. In fact, 46% of the ones we've granted to Mexican citizens since visas have been required are multiple-entry visas.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

How long are they good for? Is it five years, 10 years?

10:45 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Claudette Deschênes

Unfortunately, Canadian laws allow us to issue these visas solely for the period during which the applicant's passport is valid. If it's only one year, the multiple-entry opportunity is applicable only for one year. However, it's applicable for three years if the applicant's passport is valid for three years.

We're going to use the example of Mexico to encourage our officers more. For us, the biggest problem is the cost difference between single and multiple entries. There's also work to be done with our applicants. A number of them don't want to request multiple-entry visas.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

I don't think it's well known at all. There are no applications. So something should be done to promote those visas.

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Merci.

This past spring I put a question to you, Minister, in the House about the one-third cut to staffing levels at the immigration section in the Kiev embassy, to which you, and in fact your parliamentary secretary, in evening debates claimed that there was not a one-third cut to staffing levels.

I just wanted to read into the record what Ms. Tsarkova, who is the Canadian embassy program officer, stated in an interview on October 26, 2006, the year in question, to the Kyiv Post:

In the immigration section of the Canadian Embassy in Kyiv, this review and adjustment resulted in the elimination of one immigration officer position and two clerical/support positions–a registry supervisor and a cashier.

When I inquired of your department, sir, I received a similar response, that in fact there was a one-third cut. Minister, in fact you put out a press release into the Ukrainian-Canadian community stating that there were no cuts, that this was false. Were you misinformed by your department, or were you engaged in disinformation?

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Neither. Mr. Chairman, when I said there had been no cuts, I was referring to the total number of staff at our immigration mission, which has remained constant. There was one Canadian-based officer removed. There were additional locally engaged staff added. There are 12 staff working in Kiev.

Mr. Chairman, the important thing is that our immigration office continues to perform very strongly in Kiev. I visited it in November. In point of fact, it was before Islamabad, so that was the first place I went as minister. I'm happy to advise Mr. Wrzesnewskyj that, for instance, in 2007, we processed 1,700 permanent residency applications from Kiev, last year 1,500. This is in comparison to, for instance, 1,400 and 1,300 in 2004 and 2005. So there has been an increase under this government in the number of people processed in Kiev.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I don't make operational decisions. I don't tell ADM Deschênes, we need to put one person here, take one person out. They have to look at the global service requirements, and they ship personnel.... And by the way, these officers are very costly to the system. The Department of Foreign Affairs assesses us a charge that they estimate—am I allowed to talk about this?—of about $850,000, I understand, for every visa officer we place abroad. So our operational people have to make some tough decisions, and sometimes it means hiring more local staff, rather than Canadian-based officers. The important thing is, we're doing the same amount of business.