Evidence of meeting #26 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claudette Deschênes  Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Les Linklater  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. This is the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, meeting number 26. It is Tuesday, October 6, 2009, and the orders of the day are pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study of plans and priorities of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. We have before us today as a witness the Honourable Jason Kenney, Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism.

Good morning, Minister. You have three of your people with you today, and I'm going to ask that you introduce them when you're making your comments. You may begin. Thank you very much for coming.

9:05 a.m.

Calgary Southeast Alberta

Conservative

Jason Kenney ConservativeMinister of Citizenship

Thank you, Chairman, for having me.

Dear colleagues, it's great to be back at committee. I'm joined by our new deputy minister, Neil Yeates, who's joined us from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. He has gotten right into our big and complex files. I'm also joined by our new deputy minister of strategic programs and policy, Les Linklater, and our old DM for operations—I mean in the sense of veteran—the ADM, Claudette Deschênes, who we rely on for her expertise and for all of the operations around the world in our many offices.

When I appeared before the committee in June, Mr. Chairman, I explained how our action plan for faster immigration was paying off. Today I am pleased to inform the committee that we continue to make important progress. You may recall that in 2008 Canada accepted more than half a million newcomers, including permanent residents, temporary foreign workers, and international students. We also granted citizenship to more than 176,000 new Canadians. You may also recall that our backlog in the federal skilled worker category, which had reached more than 600,000, had dropped to roughly 515,000 by the end of last year. That was a significant drop of 15%.

Mr. Chairman, as of the end of August this year, this backlog has dropped even further to a little more than 432,000, a reduction of more than 30% since a year ago. We're committed to a strong immigration program that balances Canada's economic, humanitarian, and family reunification goals. We're planning to welcome between 240,000 and 265,000 new permanent residents this year. While many other countries have cut back immigration levels as a short-term response to the global economic downturn, we are actually maintaining very ambitious levels in response to our country's medium- to long-term economic needs and indeed our demographic challenges.

I'd like to update you on some of the things we've done, but it's always worth remembering that since coming to office, we've made some important progress. We're cutting in half the right of landing fee and tripling federal investment in settlement and integration services outside Quebec.

That has always been very well [Inaudible—Editor] in Quebec.

My department has also made progress on foreign credential recognition. Indeed as you know, the Prime Minister reached an accord with the premiers in that respect. I think we'll have exciting announcements to make later this fall in that regard.

Mr. Chairman, since becoming minister almost a year ago, I have also become increasingly concerned by the growing backlog in—and indeed the abuse of—our asylum system. Some people have suggested that the backlog of refugee claims, which now is an inventory of 60,000 claims pending at the IRB, is a result of unfilled Governor in Council appointments at the Immigration and Refugee Board.

As my colleagues here know, the GIC appointment process to the IRB has twice been modified since 1997. Every time there is a modification in the appointment process, there are delays in appointments as a natural result.

I should point out that I have personally made 51 of those appointments and 19 reappointments to IRB positions, and now the Board stands at more than 94% of its full complement of its Governor in Council members.

The current situation is far more complex than just the number of decision-makers at the IRB. Between 2006 and 2008, there was a 60% increase in the number of refugee claims filed in Canada. As I indicated, that growing backlog reached 61,000 this summer. This government inherited about one-third of that backlog, about 20,000 cases, when we came to office in 2006. Another one-third, about another 20,000 cases, were the result of delayed appointments as a result of the transition to the new merit-based appointment system, which I think is working pretty well.

But at least one-third of that 60,000-case backlog before the IRB is the result of the growth of claims above and beyond the capacity of the IRB to process. Even at full capacity, full appointments, full budget, the IRB can only finalize about 25,000 asylum decisions a year. Last year we received 37,000 claims above and beyond the IRB's maximum capacity of 12,000 claims. Clearly at that rate the backlog will continue to grow, and so will wait times.

The government's decision this past summer to require visas for all citizens of Mexico and the Czech Republic entering Canada was based on hard facts and demonstrated the need for action. It was not an easy decision, but in my judgment it was in our national interest. For example, almost one in four of the asylum claims in Canada last year came from Mexico, yet the IRB determined that only about 11% of those claims were well founded. That means that a growing number of asylum claimants are not in need of Canada's protection, based on the numbers we've seen.

The acceptance rate of claims at the IRB currently is in the range of 44%, yet an unsuccessful claimant who is determined to game our system can stay in Canada for several years with a work permit and our social assistance. That fundamentally undermines the fairness of our immigration system. For a legal immigrant waiting to come from Mexico, for instance, through the federal skilled worker program, it's fundamentally unfair to have to wait four to five years and see someone simply jump off a plane, make an asylum claim, and get a work permit even though the claim is not well founded.

Since we began requiring visitors from Mexico and the Czech Republic to obtain a visa, the number of refugee claims has slowed to a trickle. In the two and a half months since the visa requirement took effect, there have been only 17 refugee claims at ports of entry from Czech nationals compared to 831 claims in the same period leading up to the visa imposition. Similarly, in that period, claims at ports of entry from Mexican nationals have fallen significantly to 35, down from 1,287 in the two and a half months before the announcement. Prior to the imposition of visas, Mexico and Czech refugee claims accounted for almost 50% of the total number of claims made at ports of entry. Since we imposed the visas, only 6% of claims were made by nationals of those countries. We've managed to stem the tide a bit with visas on Mexico and the Czech Republic. But I think we can all agree that visas are a blunt instrument and not the ideal solution. I think we need to reform the asylum system.

Since we began requiring visitors to first obtain a visa for Mexico and the Czech Republic, the number of claims has slowed to a trickle. I won't review in English what I've just said in French, except to say that obviously visa imposition is a last resort. It's not something we prefer to rely upon, but to protect the integrity of our immigration system we need to look at reforms to the refugee asylum system.

The committee has Bill C-291 before it, which I acknowledge is inspired by very good sentiment and a desire to ensure a full and fair appeal for refugees. And as the committee knows, the government supports, in principle, the idea of the implementation of a refugee appeal division.

However, that applies only in the context of a more efficient system. We can't add another appeal level to a system that in some instances takes years to turn a false refugee claimant away at the border.

To summarize, I look forward later this fall to bringing recommendations to the committee and the House on how we can streamline and improve our asylum system so it is more balanced--a system that will fully respect rights, due process, charter rights, and our international obligations to asylum claimants, but will also ensure that we protect the integrity of our immigration system and that it does not take years to remove false claimants who abuse Canada's generosity.

Mr. Chairman, I'm available to answer the questions of all members; my senior officials are as well. Thank you very much.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your presentation.

Mr. Bevilacqua, you have some questions of the minister.

October 6th, 2009 / 9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, welcome once again. Thank you for your comments on your planning and priorities. I would also like to congratulate Mr. Yeates and Mr. Linklater on their appointments. It's a fun department, I understand, and there's a lot of work to do. I'm sure that as public servants you will excel, as do many public servants in this country.

I want to pick up on the points raised by the minister on the issue of the refugee system and its reforms. As you know, this is an area I've raised in question period and in discussions with you. I believe it is of vital importance to the integrity of Canada's immigration system, and I would very much like to see this package presented to the House as soon as possible.

One of the concerns I believe we share is that it takes far too long for the status of refugees to be determined. That has to change. By the same token, I also don't want the reform package to be slow getting in. That would not be a very good start if we're trying to speed things up. So I'd like you to elaborate on that point.

We're also dealing with Bill C-291, so I wonder if you have any advice on the issue of an appeals division, and whether or not your package includes an appeals division that would alleviate some of the concerns we share here in committee.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I thank my colleague for those questions, Mr. Chairman.

I agree with him. I think there is some degree of urgency to this. As the Prime Minister indicated when he was in Mexico in the summer, when we had to impose these visas, our foreign partners in Mexico and the Czech Republic, and more broadly in the European Union, said to us that we have created a pull factor, as we call it in immigration policy, in Canada. It is the pull factor of an asylum system that is too easily abused. When people know they can come here and get a work permit to find good jobs and/or social benefits, and that it could take years to remove them if ever they're found to have filed false claims, it incents abuse of the system. That's why the Prime Minister said that this is a real problem and that we have to deal with it and do so promptly.

I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, that I'm working very diligently with my officials and cabinet colleagues on this, and I hope that we can, as I indicated, come forward with a very robust package. I'm not going to put a timeline on it, but I'm certainly working at light speed in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, under the current system, it's taking over 18 months for a claimant to get a hearing at the IRB--18 months. Now, if that claimant gets a hearing at the IRB and is found not to be a refugee claimant--the person, for whatever reason, doesn't meet the definition of an asylum claimant--he or she can then seek leave to appeal to the Federal Court. That takes several months. If leave to appeal is not granted, or if it's granted and then denied--if the application for a judicial review is denied--the person would then typically make an application for a pre-removal risk assessment. That takes several months to process. If that's then denied, often the person will then seek leave to appeal to the Federal Court on the negative PRRA decision. That takes several months. If the court refuses to grant leave to appeal or denies a judicial review of the application, then typically someone will make an application for permanent residency in Canada for humanitarian and compassionate reasons, including an assessment of risk, which is, in a certain sense, a second refugee claim. It's a second assessment of the risk they would face if returned. That now is taking.... How long is it at H and C? It's taking 18 months at H and C. If people get a negative H and C decision, they can then seek leave to appeal to the Federal Court, which is several more months. If that is rejected, it just continues.

That track alone--those three, or actually six, decision points, three in the system and three at the Federal Court--takes about three and a half to six years, in range, to process before people can be removed. Then, once they get into the removal queue, we often have very serious problems getting travel documents from various countries from which these people have come to Canada. Consequently, very frequently we end up with false claimants who are able to stay in Canada for four, five, or six years, by which time they are very frequently in a position to demonstrate that they're so integrated into Canada that we make a positive humanitarian and compassionate decision on their application for permanent residency.

This is a broken system, and it needs to be streamlined. Quite frankly, if we now add the RAD into that current system, we're adding another--how much do we estimate?--four or five months to the process. There are already ample opportunities for reviews of a case. No one, in principle, is returned to a country where they face risk, because of the PRRA. They get a risk assessment at the H and C. They get all these points of access to the Federal Court. That's why the UN High Commissioner for Refugees says we have one of the most robust asylum systems in the world.

To add yet more time to that sort of four-year, on average, time span, in my judgment, doesn't do any benefit to the system. That's why we need to streamline the system, make it move faster, get faster first instance decisions so we give protection to real refugee claimants much more quickly, and, I would hope.... I cannot give you a commitment because I'm not in a position to make a presentation to Parliament, but I would hope that a reformed system would include a proper appeal process on the merits of the case at the IRB.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

You have only 30 seconds.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Your role is citizenship and immigration, obviously. I have a question on citizenship. You've been making quite a few statements in reference to Canada's citizenship. On page 33 of your RPP there's also....

What changes to the citizenship program do you envision? Your report on plans and priorities indicates that one subactivity of multiculturalism, “Canada's Action Plan Against Racism”, is coming to an end on March 31, 2010. Are there any plans to renew this program, and is there going to be any funding available?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

With respect to citizenship, we have a multi-phased review of the citizenship program to invest more meaning into the whole citizenship process. The first step will be a revised study guide for the citizenship test to include greater knowledge about Canadian history, democratic traditions, etc. I hope we'll be in a position to release that fairly soon this fall. We are also working with the commission and interested parties like the Citizenship Institute, founded by Mrs. Clarkson, to look at more meaningful ceremonies. Those are the kinds of things we're doing in terms of the citizenship program.

In terms of the action plan against racism, it was created as a sunset program by the previous government. We've implemented it. I think we had a $52 million budget over three years, and it's coming to an end. We'll review the program and assess how effective it has been.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We have to move on, Minister.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a number of questions for the minister. I probably have enough for an hour, but I doubt the Chairman will grant me that. So I'm going to try to get to the point.

I'd like to talk to you once again about the use of French at the Immigration and Refugee Board in Montreal. You remember a case I've spoken to you about on a number of occasions in recent months in which a lawyer and his client were denied the right to obtain evidence in French, even though they managed to change the language of the proceedings to French following a long battle.

At the time, you told me that the decision was being made and that you didn't want to interfere in a trial, as it were. Personally, I wasn't satisfied with that answer. Without trying to influence a judge, you could at least have influenced your colleague at Public Safety and asked him to have the Border Services Agency agree to proceed in French since it was one of the two parties before the court.

A judgment has been rendered, and the board member has completed his work. In our opinion, and in that of all those who defend the French language in Quebec, that judgment has set a dangerous precedent. Board member Dumoulin, in his explanation of his refusal to have the evidence translated into French, said that the lawyer did not demonstrate that his client had suffered any prejudice as a result of the fact that he was unable to obtain the evidence in French. In my opinion, that's unacceptable. In English, they say rights are rights are rights. If you have a right to proceed in French, you have a right to that. You don't have to demonstrate any kind of prejudice.

The ball is clearly in your court because now a political decision has to be made. The lawyer in question, Mr. Handfield, has filed an appeal with the Federal Court solely on the French issue. In Federal Court, it will be Justice Canada lawyers who represent you personally, Mr. Kenney, Minister of Immigration, and not the representatives of the IRB.

What instructions will you be giving your counsel? Will you tell them to fight to uphold the decision of Board member Dumoulin or to concede the dispute to Mr. Handfield?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you for your question.

First, I want to assure you that the IRB is determined to offer its services in both of Canada's official languages. I spoke about that with the chair of the IRB, who confirmed for me that the Commission has an obligation in that regard. On March 16, a board member in the Immigration Division rendered a decision to the effect that the language used for proceedings in this investigation would be changed to French.

The board member in the IRB's Immigration Division ruled that the documents that had previously been filed would not be translated since the CBSA, that is the Minister of Public Safety, had met his obligation under subsection 25(1) of the Immigration Division Rules to submit documents in the language of the proceedings, which was English at that time. In other words, both lawyer and client initially accepted English as the language of the proceedings. That's why the board member directed that every document subsequently filed in evidence had to be provided in French or translated into French, the new language of the proceedings.

As the IRB is a quasi-judicial tribunal, I am limited in my comments. However, Mr. Chairman, I can say that all the rules have been followed. From the moment the client and his counsel requested a change of language, all documents had to be filed in French, but as the language at the outset was English, the documents were in English.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Minister, the problem is that, when people arrive in Canada and file a claim, the Border Services Agency in Montreal systematically opens the files in English. Even if a lawyer asks, at the first opportunity, that the language of the proceedings be changed, it is already too late. According to board member Dumoulin's decision, it is at the moment when the government files the documents that the language of the proceedings applies. When the agency prepares its case, it does so in English. When the lawyer is assigned the case, the material is already prepared.

Fundamentally, one can wonder about the appropriateness of systematically opening the files in English. Shouldn't the default language in Montreal be French rather than English? In the case before us, the person spoke neither French nor English. The proceeding could very well have been conducted in French. The agency employs a lot of francophones, and they should have the right to work in French most of the time. In Montreal, the use of English should be the exception, as that of French is in Toronto.

That's one problem, but I have a more specific question to ask you. As minister, you'll have to instruct the Justice Canada lawyers who represent you in the Federal Court appeal. Are you going to tell them to fight to uphold the decision of board member Dumoulin and that you want to retain the restrictions on the use of French, or are you going to tell them to concede the appeal, that Mr. Handfield is right, that board member Dumoulin's decision creates a dangerous precedent, which is unacceptable, and that prejudice will have to be proven?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to inquire about that. Lawyers often decide to appeal a decision under the provisions of an act and precedents. They do so for complex reasons. I don't monitor the thousands of cases before the courts involving my department. I'm not a lawyer, and it is therefore impossible for me to deal with the details of all the proceedings against my department. We're talking about the procedural rules of the IRB, which is an independent, quasi-judicial government organization. As far as I know, that organization complies with the spirt of the Official Languages Act. When you talk about the language of service in Montreal, for example, I'm sure that the vast majority of—

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We're going to have to carry this over to another round, Monsieur St-Cyr.

Ms. Chow.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Each year, Mr. Minister, close to 200,000 visitors try to come to Canada and are turned down.

The acceptance rates at missions abroad vary a great deal. If you are coming from Europe to visit your family, there is an 84% approval rate. If you're coming from Chandigarh—let's say your mother just passed away and you try to come here to attend the funeral—there's a good chance you're going to be turned down. In fact, there is a 43% approval rate from there, which means a majority of them are being turned down. It's the same for Islamabad, for which there is a 34% approval rate; and in Colombo, it's a 51% approval rate.

This means that if you have relatives in those areas and you try to bring them here to attend a wedding, the birth of a grandson, or, God forbid, a funeral, or to visit a dying father or mother, most likely you are going to get turned down.

The question is why? Why is there such a variance, an 84% approval rate versus a 43% rate?

And would you put in an appeal system, just like the U.K. and Australia have, so that it would at least be very clear why people are turned down right now? Right now, they just get a note saying, you have not been able to prove sufficient ties, whatever that means. You just end up applying again, and it could be the same officer who turns you down a second, third, or fourth time.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you, Ms. Chow, and I appreciate your concern about this. As you know, it's an issue that vexes all members of Parliament and every Minister of Immigration. The reality, as you know, is that the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act creates a framework for visas for temporary residents who are foreign nationals, unless their country gets a special exemption based on objective criteria, and ministers delegate their authority to grant those visas to officers who are professional, highly trained members of our public service, who make their decisions based on a review of the facts in an objective manner.

Now I don't want to suggest that they are infallible—they make mistakes, as we all do—but I believe that in the overwhelming majority of cases they're making fair and objective decisions. Those decisions are based in part on the visa officer's determination of the applicants' likelihood to return to their country of origin, and a number of different indices are used to assess that.

I can tell you I visited Chandigarh and Islamabad, in part because of the concerns that had been registered with me about the apparently high rejection rates. I wanted to get a better understanding of what's going on in those missions. I was presented with overwhelming evidence of an incredibly high level of fraudulent supporting documents and the involvement of fraudulent and unscrupulous consultants in making applications. In fact, in Chandigarh I heard about people getting rejection letters that were fraudulent—counterfeit rejection letters—from the consultants whom they hired to file the applications. So our visa officers in some of these missions are dealing with a very high incidence of.... The value of being able to come to Canada has, actually, a monetary value on the black market in certain regions, which is extremely high. This incentivizes a lot of fraudulent, problematic claims, and that compels our public servants to be very vigilant in terms of their acceptance rate.

I'd like to ask the ADM of operations to complement that answer, just quickly.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Yes. I only have seven minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Claudette Deschênes Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Okay. I'll just quickly say that there are mechanisms that exist today, if the refusal of an application is felt to not be warranted. Certainly, MPs write a lot in terms of asking us to—

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

I know all that well. I just asked because I just added up the numbers. In Chandigarh a work permit has a 15% approval rate, a study permit, 29%. So you're looking at 18,617 people being turned down. Don't tell me they all have fraudulent documents or they're cheating. Yes, some of them are coached by unscrupulous consultants to lie, and then some of them come over here—a few—and they end up exploiting the system.

I noted when you were here a few months ago you talked about how you'd bring in a program where you would tighten up the consultants program, so that would get rid of the ghost consultants, etc. Our committee again approved a report with nine recommendations; still we haven't seen progress on it. You also talked about fixing the live-in caregivers program the last time you were here, and still it hasn't been fixed. The citizenship of descendants of adopted kids in Canada--that is an area that's causing stateless kids of Canadians born outside Canada. All of those areas are really critically important, and this committee has made recommendations for you to look at and to implement, and yet I haven't seen...it's not in your policy and priority area.

Coming back to Chandigarh and to the Asia-Pacific area, I was on a radio program and people were saying, “Is that discrimination? Why is it that we have such a high turn-down rate?”, and “What is it in our region? Are we being discriminated against?” Certainly there's a feeling that because the process—the application and the rejection—is so opaque, not transparent, they can't tell why they are rejected. “How come so-and-so got in and I didn't?” As a result, it's causing, really, a bad reputation overseas.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

Mr. Dykstra.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Can I respond?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Chair, actually, I would give—

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You know, if the committee wants us to go over—we've gone over for the Liberals and the New Democrats—and if we want to keep going over.... They're your rules; I'm just trying to follow them.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I will give up a bit of my time for the minister to respond.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Okay.