Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 1st, 2009

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

With lots of pleasure.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I'm sure I'll take some flak for the work that I may or may not do at this committee, according to the opposition.

I know the reason you're here this morning—I wasn't quite hearing it from folks across the table—is the Auditor's report. While the opposition may have found a couple of things in there that we need to work on--which we have, and the ministry and you have agreed to--there are some positive components to that report.

One of them that I want to build on is yesterday's announcement regarding the foreign credential recognition program. The Auditor certainly stated that it has increased awareness of foreign credential issues. We've obviously invested a lot of money over the last number of years. I wonder if you or one of the ministry officials could tell us about the different conditions in immigration source countries that might make processing a visa or immigration application more time-consuming here relative to other countries.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you.

Certainly this ministry has the enormous challenge of operating what is, in relative terms, the largest immigration program in the developed world. We do so with I think 64 offices abroad in radically different circumstances, from Buffalo, New York, where we have a large processing centre, to Nairobi in East Africa, which services, if I'm not mistaken, 18 countries. Many of them are war-torn, dangerous areas. There are significant variances in processing times. I know the Auditor General points to this. It would be impossible to create consistent, identical processing times across all of our foreign missions. It takes enormously more time and human effort, for instance, to interview a client in one of the East African countries, out of Nairobi, than somebody who's immigrating from London and can take the tube down to our high commission. These are realities we have to deal with.

I'd like to invite ADM Deschênes to supplement the answer.

[Claudette Deschênes, Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

One of the other things that we haven't had historically is a filter to stop applications coming in. So every year we can process the number of applications we have in our annual levels. The ministerial instructions are really a great tool for us, because they will permit us to fine-tune. A long part of the processing is cases that have to stay on a file until we can actually get to them. So if we can look at what the country needs and be able to decide how many we're going to take over a period of time, then we'll be able to adjust and not keep applications pending for a long time.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Claudette, I would like to welcome you back to the committee. I know it was a bit of a rough ride last time, but thank you for being back here again.

Yesterday's announcement, which you mentioned in your remarks, Minister, goes back to the 2008 throne speech, in which we talked about a stronger relationship with the provinces and territories. We were looking at breaking down the barriers between provinces and developing a pan-Canadian approach. This is what we need to compete, economically and in trade, in the international world. Perhaps you could outline what led to yesterday's announcement and the potential impact it's going to have on our foreign credential process.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

This is a problem that has long vexed all governments. It is frustrating to newcomers that the federal government is principally responsible for selecting economic immigrants through the federal skilled worker program, which is based largely on education, skills, and experience. Yet, when they arrive here, the 20% of economic immigrants who fall within regulated professions often find themselves unable to get clear answers on their applications for credential recognition from one of the over 440 licensing bodies that exist in the ten provinces. The resulting chronic underemployment has led to the tragic joke about our having the best-educated cab drivers in the world.

I agree completely with Ms. Chow, Mr. Bevilacqua, and others who have raised this concern. We don't want to be bringing skilled people, who are often from the top economic tier of their countries of origin, to chronic underemployment in Canada. It's bad for them. It's a waste of talent. It's an opportunity cost for us. That's why in 2006 we created the Foreign Credentials Referral Office, with a $32 million budget. We wanted to invest in helping people begin the process of accreditation before they arrive in Canada. This was done to cut down on the time between arrival and accreditation. We are doing this through the Canadian immigration integration project, which will shortly be expanded and rolled out in additional missions. We're doing this through our innovation fund—providing these services in Korea, Taiwan, China, the Philippines, and India. We are giving people an opportunity now, either through the Internet or through those offices, to begin to make their applications and to understand how to get their credentials recognized.

More important, in January the prime minister, for the first time, exercised federal political leadership on this vexatious issue. He said to the ten premiers that this was something we had to get right, that we were letting down too many newcomers, and that we needed a pan-Canadian, national approach. Remarkably—I never thought I'd see the day—he got all ten premiers and the three territorial leaders to sign off on an accord. This accord will create an open labour market in Canada by 2014, where there will be mutual recognition of international credentials, and cause a framework to be developed that will accelerate credential recognition for foreign-trained professionals.

That's what we announced yesterday. It was the consequence of a $50-million investment in the economic action plan. We announced that we've identified with the ten provinces eight professional licensing agencies across the country, licensing bodies that include engineers and pharmacists, among others. By the time the system starts, people applying for recognition from one of these professional bodies will get an answer within a year.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Good morning, Minister.

Minister, I have a number of questions I will ask and then you can take your sweet time answering them. Usually when I ask a question you seem to want to eat into my five minutes. Anyway, I'll take the opportunity to ask all the questions and then you can go for it.

Last week we had Ms. Fraser here, and she said:

We found that Citizenship and Immigration Canada has made a number of key decisions without first properly assessing their costs and benefit risks and potential impact on the programs and delivery mechanisms. For example, program changes in recent years have resulted in a significant shift in the types of workers being admitted permanently to Canada. We saw little evidence that this shift is part of any clear strategy to best meet Canada's labour needs. A strategic road map for the future, such as the national framework the department committed to develop in 2004, would help to provide a clear vision of what each program is expected to contribute to the economic objectives for immigration....Our chapter on selecting foreign workers notes that evaluations of the programs we audited are either outdated or have not been done at all.

In 2004, Minister, 113,442 skilled workers came in. In 2008 that shifted: the skilled workers went down to 103,736, and the temporary workers went up to 192,500.

I asked Ms. Fraser what she would think if she were auditing a public industry and she saw numbers like this. She answered:

I wouldn't be too impressed by the planning, the strategic vision, and the potential consequences of all of this, the fact that there is no analysis to justify the changes and the shifts that are occurring, and that no one seems to know whether this is the right thing to be doing.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I was expecting more questions there. Thanks, Mr. Karygiannis.

First of all, I think you just perhaps made the mistake I was alluding to before, which is to confuse the slight reduction in intake in the federal skilled workers stream with the increase over the past four years in a temporary foreign workers stream. The two are unrelated.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Sir--

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

You made that comparison.

We are receiving the same number of economic permanent residents. The small reduction in the federal skilled workers stream has essentially moved over to the provincial nominee programs, which is another stream of permanent resident economic immigrants. I think it's important to understand. My predecessors, in various governments in various parties, said for a long time that we've got to ensure that immigrants are settling right across the country, not just in two or three big cities. The PNPs are allowing that to happen. I encourage you to invite to this committee the immigration minister of Manitoba, or of Saskatchewan, or of the maritime provinces, and let them talk to you about how important this PNP program is to attracting immigrants not just to settle in our three big cities.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Minister, what would the numbers be of the PNP programs?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

It was 8,000 three years ago, and this year we're targeting for 40,000, so it's an increase of fourfold.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Okay. Can you also, for this committee, tell us why there's the increase from 90,668 to 192,500 on temporary workers?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

In fact in 2005, when there was a previous government in place, Canada received 110,000 temporary foreign workers.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It was 99,146.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Last year that was a notch under 200,000.

The reality is, that is a demand-based program, and where employers are unable to find a Canadian citizen or resident to work for them they can apply for that program if they guarantee and demonstrate they're going to pay the prevailing Canadian regional wage rate and respect provincial labour market rules.

I didn't get a chance to respond to Ms. Chow's question, but we now have in place a monitoring system that will penalize employers who are abusive of the program.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Minister, if I were looking at these numbers, I would say that there is a failure and we're not letting enough immigrants in. We are justifying the positions that we need to fill by letting in temporary workers. We're letting in temporary workers. These people are coming over here and working two or three years, and after they're finished and their bosses don't need them any more, they send them on their merry way. How are we building a country that way?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

We're building a country with the most ambitious immigration program in the developed world, the largest relative intake of newcomers in the developed world.

I know a lot of Canadians thought it was counterintuitive that we should maintain these targets of a quarter of a million plus permanent residents in the midst of an economic downturn, but we did it because we believed in building this country through immigration. At the same time, there are a lot of jobs that not even new permanent residents are applying for. Just yesterday, down in the Byward Market, I was getting a bagel at a little shop owned by Chilean immigrants to Canada--they came here as refugees--and the owner, who I know, said to me, “Mr. Kenney, my husband and I are going to lose our business. We're here seven days a week, working full-time, and I can't find any Canadians to come and work for me for ten dollars an hour. How do we access the temporary foreign worker program?” That's a refugee to Canada who started a business, is an entrepreneur, and she can't find people who are willing to work here. So if she wants, she can apply for the temporary foreign worker program if she can demonstrate that Canadian permanent residents and citizens aren't working.

I think the worst thing we could do in an economic downturn would be to turn off the motor of tens of thousands of businesses that are growing and succeeding. I don't want to penalize employers because of a labour market shortage.

You know what? I understand there are problems with the temporary foreign worker program; that's why we responded with the regulations.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I've got to cut somebody off here. I choose the minister.

Madam Thi Lac or Mr. St-Cyr.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Good morning, minister, ladies and gentlemen.

I would like to discuss the issue of workers who come here and are bound to an employer. You do market research, and you check to see whether employers meet the criteria enabling them to employ immigrant workers. However, the fact that the workers are tied to those jobs may be a problem. If things don't work out, those individuals may have to wait a number of months before they get another permit. The permit covers exactly the same job, but somewhere else. This has the effect of leaving the workers vulnerable. We're talking about domestic workers and agricultural workers in particular here.

What do you intend to do to help the people who wind up in this vulnerable state? They don't necessarily have any family here who can support them.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you for raising that question, madam. This situation concerns me as well. That's why we have worked together with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada to accelerate the work permit replacement process. I believe the waiting period used to be 90 days. Now, however, it is 23 days, on average. In some cases, live-in caregivers arrive and realize that the job offered no longer exists. They then have to find another one as soon as possible.

I would like to ask Ms. Deschênes to give you more details.

[Claudette Deschênes]

We're aware of these problems, especially in the context of the economic slowdown. At the Case Processing Centre in Vegreville, we have changed our procedures so that we can manage cases involving new employers more quickly.

A number of employers were in this kind of situation, and we worked in close cooperation with Service Canada and the provinces to accelerate the process. In October last year, the waiting time for this kind of case was at least 72 days, including mailing times and everything else. Today, that period is 23 days. It's still long, but at least we are aware of the situation and are trying as hard as possible to expedite the process.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

As regards skilled workers, I'm going to tell you about one case in my riding that took 11 years to get settled. It involved a man of Tunisian extraction who was specialized in veterinary medicine. In fact, he had done his doctorate in Saint-Hyacinthe. So it wasn't a case involving an education acquired outside Canada or of having credentials to be recognized. He did his studies here in Quebec.

He returned to Tunisia and subsequently was unable to be recognized here as a skilled worker. His wife was a woman he had met here. He wanted to come back as a skilled worker, but, a few years later, became gave up. It was his spouse who sponsored him. He nevertheless managed and is now working, but he wasn't able to come back as a skilled worker. He had to be sponsored by his wife.

Canada and Quebec are said to need skilled workers, but many students who have studied here find it hard to be accepted as skilled workers. We're talking about a doctorate in veterinary medicine here. I find that really—