Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 1st, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming to our committee.

Last week the committee heard about CIC initiatives to address inefficiencies in the processing of applications abroad. The Auditor General had high praise for the third-party language test and the news of these application centres. Can you tell us more about this?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

About the language training?

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Yes.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

When we came to office in 2006, the provinces outside of Quebec were massively underfunded in terms of settlement services, including language training. One of the first things we did in the 2006 budget was to effectively triple federal funding for settlement services to help ensure successful integration of newcomers. We did this through the Canada-Ontario immigration agreement, specifically for contribution agreements with settlement agencies in Ontario, and through transfers to the provinces of B.C. and Manitoba, with which we have devolution agreements. They deliver the services on our behalf. We did it through direct federal services being provided in the four Atlantic provinces, plus Saskatchewan and Alberta. Quebec of course has its own system.

There has been a huge increase in services. You and I visited Progressive Intercultural Community Services, PICS, which provides an important range of settlement services, including language training in the lower mainland. They are doing so much more than they were a few years ago because of this.

We are ambitious for newcomers to succeed, and all the available empirical data indicates that the single most important factor in the economic success of immigrants is language proficiency. That is not to say that people with limited English or French abilities cannot succeed in Canada; we all know of great success stories where that has been the case. But increasingly we have a knowledge-based economy, where people's success will be tied in part to their language abilities. This is why we have invested so much in helping people improve their language abilities.

What concerns me is that only about 25% of eligible permanent residents enrol in the free English- and French-language classes we are providing through the settlement agencies or the provinces. That's not good enough. We are ambitious for newcomers to succeed, and we want to encourage them to make every effort.

I know it is difficult. If you are working two survival jobs and your spouse is at home taking care of kids, it's not easy to spend two hours in a language class. I understand that. That's why we're trying to find more innovative programs, like the HIPPY program, which provides at-home integration counselling and language support to at-home parents. With the pilot program we've recently launched, we will send vouchers that are worth up to 500 hours of free language classes to randomly selected newcomers in Ontario, Alberta, and Nova Scotia. That will increase their knowledge of the availability of free language training and hopefully create a positive competition for better hours, locations, and service within the settlement sector, which is the objective of the pilot program.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Minister, do you have any ideas for improving our Canadian missions abroad?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

As I mentioned, through the foreign credential referral office and our $32-million investment, we opened up the Canadian immigration integration project, partnering with the Association of Canadian Community Colleges. They have been operating two-day free seminars plus personalized counselling to selected federal skilled workers in Delhi, Manila, and Beijing. Through our innovation fund in the ministry we've also opened up offices, partnering with groups like SUCCESS, from Vancouver, in Seoul, Korea, and Taipei, Taiwan. We will, as I mentioned, be expanding this program in the near future to include more people.

This isn't language training. This is pre-integration counselling, to let people know what the job market looks like where they hope to settle, the housing market, how to find a job—applying online—how to begin the process of credential recognition, how to get a health card, and getting their kids enrolled in school. I've met these people. They are getting a head start before they even arrive.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. McColeman, welcome to the committee. You have the floor.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate it.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Although I'm a fill-in today, I'm going to take a little privilege and opportunity to ask you about a motion that I'm bringing to the House of Commons next Monday. It's on the British home child. When I heard your initial comments and heard about the new guide that your ministry is bringing out about Canada's history and values and diversity, I couldn't help but think there's a really strong linkage here to the motion I'm bringing to declare 2010 the year of the British home child. The British home child is part of our history that most Canadians don't know about, which touches many. Up to 12% to 14% of our population are descendants of British home children.

Of course, in my mind, this is a great Canadian story of overcoming adversity. There were over 100,000 British home children who immigrated into this country from the late 1800s to the early 1930s, and they overcame diversity. They have made our country great. They served in both world wars. They represent part of our history that hopefully will be told in the year 2010, as a result of this motion I'm bringing. I'm bringing this to the committee today. I know you've been involved in this and have communicated with me and my office and my staff. I'm just wondering what your overall view of such a motion is, and of the contributions these British home children have made to making Canada great.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thanks.

I'd like to welcome our colleague, Mr. McColeman, to the committee and commend him for his efforts in this regard.

The experience of the British home children was a significant part of building Canada. I believe something like 100,000 British home children arrived in this country between the 1880s and the early 1930s. While many of them had very positive experiences and had welcoming families and were able to have a future moving out of terrible poverty in Britain during that period, we also recognize that many of them experienced very difficult treatment, and in some cases abuse, and certainly we acknowledge that fact. This is what you're helping to educate Canadians about, their contribution and their important role in our history. I commend you for that.

Certainly for all parties, private members' bills and motions are free votes, but the cabinet always votes taking a government position, and I'm pleased to inform you that the cabinet has decided to support this motion, because we think it's a great way of highlighting this remarkable period in our history.

This is joined by various other educational efforts supported by federal departments and agencies. For example, I understand that Canada Post intends, on the advice of their commemorative stamp advisory committee, to issue a special British home child stamp in 2010. I understand that Pier 21, the new federal museum of immigration, has done exhibitions on their experience and will continue to, as has the Museum of Civilization across the river in Gatineau. Your motion I think will help to bring these different initiatives together at the federal level to raise awareness. Really, as you say, it corresponds to what we're trying to do in our new citizenship study guide, “Discover Canada”, which is to give people a better sense of our history.

I think Mr. Young was asking about how you get copies. We'll be getting printed copies, and I'll be letting all MPs know shortly, and asking them how many copies they want to order to distribute within their constituency offices, or wherever. If people would like to get their own copies, they can contact us online or they can download it from our website at www.cic.gc.ca.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

That concludes the second round of questions.

The chairman has a brief question that has to do with the foreign credential issue that you announced yesterday and with the wait times being reduced for foreign credential recognition. It was pointed out, as you have also done, sir, that $50 million has been set aside to work over two years with different levels of government to address this issue. When you're talking about professional organizations, medical associations, law associations, and those types of things, those are the associations that actually grade the people who are going to join those particular organizations. Obviously you had discussions with the provinces. Can you tell us what discussions you've had with the different associations across the country, and whether they will receive financial assistance as well?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thanks.

I should point out that for several years we've had a foreign credential recognition program situated in the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Development Canada. That is the program and the ministry that has been the interface on the federal side with the licensing bodies. Minister Finley has taken the lead on this issue, working with the provinces with particular intensity since the first ministers' agreement in January of this year.

Obviously we don't have a direct oversight role with respect to the some 440 licensing bodies in Canada. They are creatures of the provincial governments, which under the Constitution, of course, have exclusive jurisdiction in their domains for labour market regulation, including for the regulated professions. It's principally the provinces that have been the interlocutors, but some of what I would call perhaps the more progressive professional agencies have gotten into a dialogue with the federal government through HRSDC and the FCR program.

We've been able to identify, of the 40-plus regulated professions, which of them are more willing to knock down some of the barriers to credential recognition for newcomers. The list of eight that we announced yesterday is a pretty good indication of the ones who are willing to play ball.

Some of the major professional agencies—let's make no bones about this—are less willing to collaborate, less willing to streamline the process, cut the red tape, and reduce the processing times. I have to share the observation that some of them appear to be acting in a way as to keep closed labour markets and to keep closed the doors of opportunity for foreign-trained professions, and that is a shame.

We are exercising political pressure, as are the provincial governments—Ontario through it's fairness commissioner, and B.C. with the recent legislation. We are putting considerable pressure on those agencies not to reduce their standards, but to streamline the process. As I keep saying, we can't guarantee a yes answer, but we should offer them a clear, transparent, and fairly brief process so they can get a yes or a no.

An example is the medical profession. Here we have a profession that is much in demand in Canada and we have foreign-trained doctors who are clearly not getting licence to practice. It's not just foreign-trained doctors. I have a constituent, born in Canada, who went down to Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in the United States, got his M.D., got his specialization, and came back to Alberta where he found that it was going to take him a couple of years to be able to practise. He went back to the United States. There are hundreds of cases like that.

So we hope that next year, in the second year of the pan-Canadian framework rollout, the relevant colleges and licensing bodies in the medical profession will come to the table and give us a streamlined process for a maximum one-year answer on applications to be licensed.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

When the minister was here on March 10, questions were put to him about persons coming into Canada. This was regarding Mr. Türkkaya Ataöv. The minister said,

If the person is guilty of a crime, or we have reasonable apprehension that he will commit a crime in Canada, then we can deny the person a visa.

The minister went further to say,

If a visa officer believes there's reasonable likelihood that someone will commit a crime in Canada, then he will be denied a visa. If someone is guilty of a crime in the country of origin and we believe they may commit a crime in Canada, the visa officer is likely to deny the person a visa.

Minister, you said that back in March, yet your officials allowed Mr. Sebastian Seeman to come to Canada when fully well you knew this individual was going to have trouble.

I'm going to read you what's in Wikipedia. I'm sure that Wikipedia is something your officials can also read. Wikipedia says,

On October 24, 2008, Seeman was arrested after taking part in a rally condemning state atrocities against Tamils in Sri Lanka.

Minister, why did your officials let the man in? Did they allow him in so you could have a big show and get him arrested and the whole nine yards, or was this still another failure that you let him in after you had let Mr. Türkkaya Ataöv in and he created the same thing?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thanks, Chairman.

I'm not familiar with, nor could I comment on, the details of a particular case, for reasons included in the Privacy Act, as you know, Mr. Karygiannis, but I will restate that the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act renders inadmissible anyone who ibelongs or has belonged to an espionage organization, a terrorist organization, a criminal network, or anyone who has committed a serious crime abroad that would also be a crime in Canada. The Canada Border Services Agency does its very best to enforce those provisions--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

With all due respect, Minister, your officials failed--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No, Mr. Karygiannis, you can't interrupt the minister.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Your officials failed. They knew it and they let him in--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Karygiannis, I'm going to talk through your time and I'm going to ask Mr. Bevilacqua to ask questions.

Mr. Bevilacqua has a question.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, on behalf of the Liberal Party, I want to express to Mr. McColeman that we will be supporting the British home child issue that you've raised.

Minister, we in this committee and I'm sure in your work as minister we're dealing with a lot of issues, whether it's foreign credentials, various streams, language training, immigrant aid, or settlement. But sometimes as we deal with these specific issues we forget the real big macro picture.

Unfortunately, what is happening with immigration in Canada, which is very different from immigration after the world war, is that you have immigrants who are over-represented in the poverty rates, the unemployment rates, and the under-employment rates of our country. This issue is important for two reasons. Number one, of course the immigrants are not fulfilling the so-called Canadian dream they talk about abroad. Number two, it's also bad for our own national interest. When individuals are not maximizing their human resources potential, it's very hard for a country to maximize its potential.

While we are dealing with immigration as a specific department, one of the concerns I have is that immigration is not a government-wide issue. That is a concern, and it's been a concern for me for a long time; it's not just a recent issue. I think it's myopic and parochial to just think of it as your ministry. Is this going to change? I understand how important the refugee reform package is to you, for example, but I'm not so sure the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister have the same appreciation. I'm being quite frank. Nor do I particularly believe that immigration and citizenship is viewed as a top-tier file. I'm fully cognizant of the economic challenges they face, but immigration is one of the pillars of nation-building, and I don't think it gets the respect it deserves.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Bevilacqua.

We've certainly had this discussion and agreed on the need to improve economic outcomes for newcomers, which is why we brought in the action plan that is better aligning economic integrated selection with our labour market needs. It's processing our applications faster. It's why we've expanded the provincial nominee programs that typically include pre-arranged employment for people who come to Canada, which certainly helps their immediate economic success. It's why we've tripled the funding for settlement services and language training, it's why we created the Canadian experience class immigration program to allow pre-integrated, highly skilled temporary foreign workers and qualified foreign students to have a pathway to permanent residency.

I get your larger point absolutely. I would, however, challenge the assertion that this ministry is neglected or sidelined. If you look at the Minister of Finance's 2006 budget, it clearly underscores that future labour market development, including immigration, is central to Canada's mid- to long-term economic success. That was the policy rationale for my colleague, the Minister of Finance, to increase the budget of this department by hundreds of millions of dollars to invest in settlement services. That was real money. As you know, budget-making is about choices, and the government chose to invest and we are continuing to invest in these areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you very much.

I also wanted to emphasize the fact that the Bloc Québécois will be supporting Mr. McColeman's motion. He will no doubt be delighted to know that one of the descendants of those persons is an illustrious promoter of Quebec sovereignty in the person of Gilles Duceppe.

I want to go back to the French question. In our previous exchange, minister, you said that the language of proceeding could not be changed at every turn during a trial, that that would require translation, which would result in costs.

However, in the case before us, at the first opportunity, even before the first hearing was held, counsel asked on behalf of his client to proceed in French. The problem is that, at the start of the process, when the respondent was summoned to meet with the official, the material had already been produced in English. A form had been completed by an official in Montreal, who had checked the “English” box systematically. However, if you say that, once the material is produced in English, it can't be translated, there will be virtually no material in French, since, unfortunately, immigration matters are dealt with in English in Montreal.

You said earlier that that was ultimately the fault of the Public Safety people. First, could you undertake to ask your Public Safety colleague if the agency could proceed in French by default? Second, if the first opportunity not yet early enough, when must the francophone lawyers in Montreal make the request in order to be entitled to proceed in French?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman.

I visited the offices of my department in Montreal, and I believe that 100% of the employees I met were francophones who function entirely in French. I can tell you that I visited the operations office of the Canada Border Services Agency at Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport in Montreal. They operate completely in French. So it's obviously a bilingual service.

If you have any knowledge of specific cases in which people have not received service in French, across Canada, but particularly in Quebec, please inform me of them. It would obviously be completely bizarre and unacceptable. I assure you that we are here. I believe the Commissioner of Official Languages has previously given the Department of Citizenship and Immigration good directions concerning the Official Languages Act. I therefore don't understand the problem.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Kenney, the problem is that I have been informing you about the matter before us for months. One lawyer asks, at the start of proceedings, to proceed in French and ultimately has to fight for that right. However, the court refuses to order translation into French. I have informed you, and not only have you not acted, but what is more, the Attorney General and your counsel are working to continue this legal guerilla warfare to prevent this client and his lawyer from receiving documents in French. There's a problem.

The immigration lawyers, the specialists, have told me, they have all confirmed it: when someone appears before immigration, if he doesn't speak French, it's English by default, even if that person doesn't speak English either. The problem is there. It's at the very start of the process.