Evidence of meeting #15 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was claim.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Showler  Professor, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Raoul Boulakia  Lawyer, As an Individual
Lorne Waldman  Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual
Vanessa Taylor  Co-Chair, Centre des femmes immigrantes de Montréal
Andrew Brouwer  Chair, Law Reform Committee, Refugee Lawyers Association of Ontario
Salvatore Sorrento  Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre
Ibrahim Abu-Zinid  Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre
Michael Greene  Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual
Catherine Dagenais  Lawyer, Research and Legislative Services, Barreau du Québec
France Houle  Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
Geraldine Sadoway  Staff Lawyer, Immigration and Refugee Group, Parkdale Community Legal Services

7:20 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

I will do so, sir, thank you.

This paper will focus on Bill C-11's positive contributions to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Federal Courts Act for immigration. This paper does not purport to answer or attest to all aspects of the bill. Other critical details and clauses will be left to our policy-makers, legal professionals, expert commentators, and stakeholders who have a much deeper and profound grasp on the details of the bill.

It is generally agreed that Canada's current asylum system is too slow. It can take many, many years to finalize a claim, and the average time required is about 18 months for a first decision at the IRB because of backlogs. Many refused claimants carry on for years waiting for their issues to be addressed. The delays hurt authentic claims, and spurious claims are detrimental to and further impede this process. The focus must be on obligations to protect individuals fleeing from violence and persecution. This should be done in a timely, honest, and measured but deliberate fashion.

The current system takes far too long. The new bill provides for a much speedier hearing. It is important that refugee claimants be granted status as quickly as possible, as deemed by the IRB. The quicker the hearing, the less likely for false claims and the sooner the claimants can get settled in Canada. The fewer people making false claims, the less likely the system will get clogged or backed up. This is another positive feature of the proposed bill.

Other strengths include access to a system whereby refugees are allowed an opportunity to speak of their situation. Many countries do not allow this. Access allows for fewer people going underground or remaining illegally in Canada. The incentive is for refugees to claim status so they are known to officials. The government can identify claimants easily and this can deter the temptation to go underground.

First-level decisions by the IRB are another strength. They have access to good resources with regard to information about other countries, careful procedures, and refugees get a full and fair opportunity to tell their story. If a claim is accepted, then refugees are permitted to have permanent status. Other countries do not allow refugees to acquire full status as citizens of their host country even when their claims are accepted. Once permanent status has been granted, individuals can set down roots and call Canada home.

The proposed new asylum system would include a refugee appeal division at the IRB. The appeal process would allow new evidence to be introduced if it were not available at the initial IRB hearing. All failed claimants, including those from designated safe countries of origin, would continue to be able to ask the Federal Court to review a negative decision. The idea of being able to introduce new evidence not available at the initial interview allows for a great opportunity to enhance one's case.

Making refugee decisions is an incredibly difficult task. To meet this challenge, a reformed system needs to be based upon the following three pillars: a good first decision, a reliable appeal, and the prompt removal of failed claimants.

Our recommendations are that the IRB place highly trained, skilled, and experienced staff at the tribunal to make sound first decisions; that the IRB undertake a regular review of what are considered to be safe countries; that the CBSA remove false claimants in a timely fashion; and finally that the IRB has discretion to extend the timelines in exceptional circumstances.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Sorrento.

Mr. Karygiannis.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Just a quick question, sir. Should we allow PRRA to take place?

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

No, we should not allow fraud to take place.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Why not, sir?

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

It's against the law.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Sorry, PRRA is right now in place.

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

Oh, PRRA. I Beg your pardon. I thought you said fraud. I apologize.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

No, I said PRA, sir, P-R...PRRA. Are you familiar with the term?

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

I am familiar with the term. Pre-removal risk assessment?

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Sure. Should we continue to have that?

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

Well, I'm going to confer with our expert who has eight years. I brought him along with me--

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

And he's also part of your board, sir?

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

He's not part of the board; he's front-line staff who has worked with--

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Okay.

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Salvatore Sorrento

I'll beg your pardon for just for a moment, sir.

Can you speak on the PRRA, Ibrahim?

May 11th, 2010 / 7:25 p.m.

Ibrahim Abu-Zinid Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

The PRRA system could be there as a final step in the process before removing the refugee from the country. It gives him a last chance if the conditions have changed or if during the process of the claim itself some circumstances have happened in his country that can support his claim as a refugee.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you.

Do you feel that eight days at the onset is enough time in order for a claimant to get their material together and apply, or should they be given more time for the initial stages?

7:25 p.m.

Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Ibrahim Abu-Zinid

In my opinion, eight days is too short for a refugee to be even interviewed for his case. By the time the refugee reaches Canada, he has passed through many problems, and he needs time first of all to get past the trauma and the psychological problems.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

What would a fair time be, sir?

7:25 p.m.

Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Ibrahim Abu-Zinid

I would say it would be at least 45 days before the first interview.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

What about the hearing, how soon after that should it be? Right now it's 60 days.

7:25 p.m.

Folk Arts Council of St. Catharines Multicultural Centre

Ibrahim Abu-Zinid

The hearing should be at least around six months after that, because some refugees, to support their claims, need to prepare documentation or to get it from abroad, from overseas, or do some research and some other things, so they need some time to do that.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you.

I'll ask the same thing to our panel here in Ottawa: Is eight days enough, or do you see any problems with it being eight days? Should the eight days go to 28, 45, 50? Should the 60 days for the hearing be four months or six months? Should we still have the PRRA? Those are the kinds of questions I'm looking for answers to.

7:25 p.m.

Chair, Law Reform Committee, Refugee Lawyers Association of Ontario

Andrew Brouwer

With respect to the question of eight days, we have a few problems with the very idea of an official at the IRB collecting the claim, as opposed to the person putting forward their own claim in their own words. So in our submission, it shouldn't exist. There should be no interview at the IRB within eight days. There could be an interview maybe a few weeks afterwards in order to get the person's address and give them referrals, if that's what the IRB would like to do, or to start talking about when they might be ready to get their claim ready. But that's not something that's needed in the law.

Right now, the IRB in Montreal does pre-hearing interviews in which they just assess the readiness of the person for the hearing, after the personal information form has been submitted. So in our submission, generally speaking, having 28 days to submit the PIF with the assistance of counsel would work. I don't think we need more time than that.

With respect to the 60 days that's been floated for the hearing, I don't think 60 days is practical at all. There may be very unusual occasions on which we have the situation of a client who has a folder of evidence with them when they arrive in Canada, but in most cases the process of collecting evidence to support a refugee claim is something that takes months. The principle, in my submission, ought to be that a refugee claim gets heard when it's ready to be heard, when the evidence is there. You can have a target of say six months, but there has to be some flexibility there so it can be earlier if the person is ready, or later if we're still waiting to get a document out of Somalia or North Korea, from which it takes a very long time to get documents.