Evidence of meeting #16 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hearing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Annie Kouamy  Community Advocate, Centre des femmes de Verdun
Alein Ortégon  Community Advocate, Centre des femmes de Verdun
Richard Kurland  Attorney, As an Individual
Peter Partington  Chairman, Niagara Region
Ted Salci  Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

We're trying to reach out to as many different witnesses and organizations across the country as we can to be able to come to a conclusion. So if there are things in this bill that need to be changed, addressed, negotiated, or put in here, we can make substantive changes that we haven't made in decades. As far as adding six months to this process and forcing individuals who are truly refugees to wait six months for their initial hearing, I hope you'll be willing to correct yourself on that one.

4:25 p.m.

Community Advocate, Centre des femmes de Verdun

Annie Kouamy

What my colleague was trying to say with regard to the six months was that the timeframe would be able to be extended up to six months.

When we began this meeting, we stated that everyone does not respond the same way to situations of stress. There are people who arrive here in a psychological state such that they need to be reassured, to understand the system, even at times to understand the language, to adapt to everything. The idea is that the period could be of up to six months. If I am not mistaken, that is the message that my colleague was trying to communicate.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Kurland, could you comment? I'd like to get your perspective on what was presented here.

4:25 p.m.

Attorney, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

Well, I looked at the proposed pay grade for these new board members or civil servants, and it's up there. The quality of decision-maker is up there. The eight-day tape would disclose, unlike a transcript, the sense of whether that claimant understood the nature and quality of the questions.

So it's not a hearing on day eight; it's simple questions. The trade-off is, if you finance the preparation early on in the process, you'll save big in terms of time and resources as the system rolls out. You have to invest in the lawyers.

My comments are that whether it's eight days, six months, or six years, we're talking about feelings. They want to feel good before sharing with the lawyer...? My experience is that the women from Africa and China who I dealt with were...I wouldn't say hardened veterans, but they put some of my family members to shame in terms of what they came away from and in terms of their self-confidence and esteem in being able to get around all of the international security safeguards to reach Canadian soil.

These are not marshmallows landing in Canada; these are unbelievable human beings who are brave. When I spoke with them, they knew what happened to them. They don't need a lawyer to tell them what the refugee law is in order to get accepted; they relayed their story plainly.

Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I got carried away.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We do too. We let you get carried away, but I'm afraid the time is up.

I want to thank the three of you for giving up your time this afternoon to give us your thoughts on this bill. To the three of you, thank you very much.

We will suspend for a few moments.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to start our second hour. We have two guests today, two witnesses directly from Niagara-on-the-Lake.

From the City of Niagara Falls, we have Mr. Ted Salci, who is the mayor, and Mr. Peter Partington, who is the chairman of the Niagara Region.

The two of you could make an introductory presentation, if you wish, or we could jump right into questions. Each of you could speak up to ten minutes if you wish. It's a long time, but you have that time.

4:35 p.m.

Peter Partington Chairman, Niagara Region

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I'll just take two to three minutes initially to talk about, first, the current process, which of course takes up to two years to complete and certainly has an impact on the ability of individual refugee claimants and families to establish their long-term goals and plans, six months to receive a work permit, and certainly an increased reliance on Ontario Works.

Ontario Works is delivered by the Region of Niagara, and it creates a negative stereotype for immigrants, being seen as placing stress on the taxpayer.

In the region, we support Bill C-11. We see it's intended to provide a smoother, faster process. Certainly the initial screening by the Immigration and Refugee Board will be held in Toronto within eight days of arriving and the whole process is to be completed within six months. So we see that as positive steps forward in the process.

We appreciate the contribution that immigrants make to the Region of Niagara. We process through the Peace Bridge entry in the region 600 refugee claimants a month. About 13% of them stay in Niagara, and the rest move on to other municipalities.

We believe the proposed bill will certainly make it much better for refugee claimants, the legitimate refugee claimants, in terms of settling; and of course it will help the Region of Niagara because it will reduce, to some extent, our hostel bed capacity. Currently, 15% of our beds are taken up by refugee claimants. As well, it will go some way to removing the burden on our taxpayers through the Ontario Works social assistance requirements. But above all, I think it is helpful to the refugee claimants.

Those are my comments.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Mayor.

4:35 p.m.

Ted Salci Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

I'd like to begin by saying that aggressive refugee reforms are certainly needed, and we see this need in our community every day. I can tell you that we certainly get people contacting our office and the local offices of our federal members for assistance with the immigration process, because it is lengthy and it is cumbersome. And some applicants are blatantly abusing the system.

Being a border community, we see people trying to enter our country to work, to live under our democratic laws, and for the most part to become Canadian citizens living in our cities. We also see first-hand the great efforts made by the Canada Border Services Agency to protect and patrol our borders, as many abuse the opportunity to come to Canada and attempt to take advantage of the social systems we have in place here.

Speaking from the perspective of a border community, as the mayor I can tell you that we rely on the free and easy travel of people into and out of our country. We recognize the great importance of allowing people into our country to grow our communities, to attract business and tourism, and to support our population.

We certainly appreciate the sensitivity of this subject. We know the crucial role immigrants play in building our communities.

I see the proposed amendments to Bill C-11 as a step in the right direction. To support those coming in and to tighten up the rules for those who currently aim to take advantage, we need to speed up the process for successful claimants so that people can get on with their lives in Canada. We need to weed out those who have untoward intentions and get them back to their countries swiftly and effectively. This legislative reform is certainly imperative. It's an opportunity to improve the system. The result will be that it will quickly become fairer for those who are negotiating their claims, as they will be taken care of in an expeditious way. And it will be fairer to the rest of Canadians, who pay for the social support systems that refugees without income rely upon.

The bill proposes to reduce the length of time a claim takes from start to finish. This will translate into a huge relief of the burden on our taxpayers. Instead of it taking an average of four and a half years for an unsuccessful claimant to go through our system and be removed from our country, under the revised law a claim would be processed in under a year. This translates, of course, into substantial savings.

The quick removal of failed claimants from the country would help discourage individuals from using the asylum system to try to jump the immigration queue to enter Canada. It would mean that unsuccessful candidates would not be supported by our social systems any longer than necessary. In turn, this would deter bogus claimants.

It's important to look at the savings that would result. It's estimated that each failed asylum case currently costs taxpayers approximately $50,000 in social service and health costs. With a faster timeframe for cases, this cost would be reduced to approximately $29,000. The savings for our taxpayers would certainly be substantial.

It will also ensure that valid claims will be processed in a timely manner so that successful refugees can get on with starting their lives in our country. They can get established, get gainful long-term employment, and start contributing to society in a meaningful way much sooner.

I support the faster process that will see claimants get their first interview within eight days of arriving in our country. Under the amended legislation, the first hearing will be 60 days after the interview. This is certainly a positive move. It is a distinct improvement over the current average of 19 months for claims to be heard by the IRB. Most importantly, the people who need help and protection will get it more quickly.

Currently, the U.K., Ireland, France, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, and other countries have a “safe country of origin” policy. By engaging in a similar system, we will be saving our taxpayers money and time. We will also be allowing those from unsafe countries an appeal process. Implementing an appeal process will allow new information to be brought forward by claimants from unsafe countries. All eligible asylum claimants, including those from safe countries, of course, will continue to have a hearing by the Refugee Protection Division.

With its commitment to increase the annual refugee target by 2,500 people, the new legislation will allow the government to help more refugees resettle in Canada.

Another benefit is that the government will be able to increase resettlement assistance program funding to $54 million, which will be the first increase we've seen in more than ten years.

Ultimately, I see the bill as addressing a need. It will help the people who are going through the system now. It will help those who need our protection to get it quickly and efficiently. And it will weed out those who are abusing the system and get them back to their countries without the extensive burden on our taxpayers that exists now.

Thank you very much.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, sir.

We'll go to Mr. Karygiannis.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you both. I hope it's a beautiful day down in Niagara Falls and that the tourists are out there spending some of their hard-earned dollars in the casinos.

4:40 p.m.

Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

Ted Salci

That's something we like to see.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Yes, you would.

I really appreciate the fact that you were well versed and well read, and I am sure there was some help given to you in order to have some of those stats and figures. I'm not going to point to or say anything about your having any political affiliation with.... Oh, sorry, you do, don't you? Both of you ran provincially for the Conservative Party?

4:40 p.m.

An hon. member

Chair, that's out of order.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Yes.

Mr. Karygiannis, you're baiting the witnesses. Don't do that.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Salci, you did mention a couple of countries that have safe origin. Could you repeat them, please?

4:40 p.m.

Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

Ted Salci

Yes, I believe my reference was to the U.K., Ireland, France, Germany, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, and Denmark. Those are the ones I mentioned earlier.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

So a lot of the European countries or aspiring European partners would be safe countries, wouldn't they?

4:40 p.m.

Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

Ted Salci

I believe so.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

So would you put Turkey, which wants to get into the EU, into the same category?

4:40 p.m.

Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

Ted Salci

I can't answer that question.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Well, in your estimation, sir. You do see a lot of people and you're an experienced politician. Would you say that Turkey as an aspiring EU partner would be a safe third country, once they join the EU?

4:40 p.m.

Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

Ted Salci

I believe that would be the case, but I don't know the political situation in Turkey at this time. But I believe they would be. I don't have any basic knowledge of that country.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Are you familiar with the Jehovah's Witnesses in Greece and what they go through?

4:40 p.m.

Mayor, City of Niagara Falls

Ted Salci

No, I'm not.