Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 13th, 2010

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Mayor, how many landed immigrants--not refugees, but landed immigrants--came to your city? That would include those who invest as entrepreneurs or those who joined their brothers and sisters or their wives, husbands, or who came as a worker. What number do you have? Is it a good number? Is it substantial or small?

[Ted Salci]

Ms. Chow, I'm going to let our regional chair act on that response, because those are regional figures, and he can give you that number.

[Peter Partington]

I don't have the numbers, but I can tell you it's extensive.

We're proud of the makeup of our region of Niagara. As a matter of fact, the folk arts festival, which has been going on perhaps longer than any other in Ontario, is being kicked off tomorrow. Niagara is really strong because of the tremendous number of landed immigrants from throughout the world who are living and working and contributing and investing in Niagara. A short visit to Niagara to look at the many wineries, hotels, and factories would show you that. That's why we say Niagara benefits from landed immigrants, from immigrants who bring in and contribute to the fabric of Niagara. We're proud of that, and always have been.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Is the refugee portion small or large? I don't know the numbers. Let's say you have 100 immigrants coming into the Niagara Region. Are maybe 10 of them refugee claimants, whether they are real or not real? Or are 50 out of 100 refugees? I'm just trying to see the size of the portion. Today the figures say Canada accepted 255,000 landed immigrants, and only 10,000 of them are refugees, so it's a very small percentage. But in your region, out of all the immigrants you get, do refugee claimants represent a large percentage or a small percentage?

[Peter Partington]

I think it would be a small percentage, because, as I say, each month 600 refugee claimants cross into Fort Erie at the Peace Bridge, but only 13% of them stay. Most of them go to Hamilton, London, Toronto, and the rest of the province. As a matter of fact, that's one of things we like to address, because we appreciate the value of having these individuals stay in the Niagara Region.

[Ted Salci]

Ms. Chow, I know you represent the residents of Toronto. We see a lot of gravitation towards the GTA. I think probably they feel comfortable because they may have relatives there. They may be feeling more welcomed having people of like nationalities living close by. But we are seeing more and more people either travelling from Toronto or coming back to our area, to work in our hotels and factories as well.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

It's a nice area.

[Ted Salci]

Yes, it is, and as the regional chairman said, many times in our offices all we hear about are the problem cases, and I'm referring them to our federal members' offices.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I see.

I know the Federation of Canadian Municipalities is meeting soon, some time in June, I believe. I know that city councils and municipalities all across Canada have been asking the federal government to assist in programs for English as a second language, settlement adaptation programs for immigrants, whether or not they're refugees, and some kinds of housing support, for example, because new immigrants, in the first half-year or year, need to settle, and they need services and support. I have found that a lot of municipalities are saying that this is good for our towns or cities, but the property tax base is not enough to assist these folks to settle in, be they refugees, not refugees, or landed immigrants. Are you finding the same thing that I'm describing in other cities, big or small, across Canada?

[Peter Partington]

We have met the requirements in Niagara with respect to the refugee claimants crossing at the Peace Bridge. There's always a demand. We have 8,000 social housing units in Niagara that we own or manage, but there's a waiting list of 4,000 families. We are constantly talking to the federal government and the provincial government to assist us in providing funds so we can address a great range of social service needs. It just appears that you can try, but you never do satisfy the complete legitimate demand that is out there. We continue to do so, and hopefully that's very positive ongoing work that we do with our federal and provincial partners.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

We know what happens to these refugee claimants or landed immigrants. The faster they settle and the faster they can find a job, the faster they are going to be able to rent a place or buy a house, and the more property taxes they are going to produce for your city. So in many ways it's not just the status that needs to be fast-tracked--because you don't want to keep people in limbo--but also in the meantime, while we are dealing with the refugee status, it would be useful for them to find some kind of job so they could get off Ontario Works or welfare. And in the meantime, if they are working, then they are paying taxes to all levels of government.

Is there some way we could do more together to help these claimants while they are waiting for us to deal with their status?

[Peter Partington]

Yes, and that's an excellent point. I made that earlier on. One of the things Bill C-11 will do is fast-track these claimants so they can start work earlier, can achieve their goals, and can get that sense of self-worth, which is being postponed under the current system.

Certainly in Niagara, with our Ontario Works program and social services, and having this tremendous tourism industry, we have people who are constantly reaching out to industry to find jobs for people on Ontario Works. One of the things we're pleased with--which is a little bit unique--is that the two casinos in Niagara tend to be a tremendous training ground and a step into a more permanent job for many people coming off Ontario Works in Niagara. So we're constantly reminded, and we do have a very strong part of our social services department working on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Partington.

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To our two witnesses, thank you for attending. I know you are both busy, and the fact that we have some participation from both the regional and municipal level in this process is a good indication that we're trying to get witnesses from across a swath of different areas with respect to the bill. So I thank both of you for taking time out today.

Mr. Partington, one of the things you commented on was the issue of the approximate cost of at least $1 million to regional taxpayers to fund the programs that assist those who are at the Buffalo border, at the Niagara Falls border, or the Lewiston border and come over. We find a way to help them, and through municipal and regional property taxes we are actually taking on that responsibility.

One of the things I found interesting in your comments was that it isn't just the federal and provincial governments that are under significant financial pressure with respect to our refugee system. Costs are also incurred by municipalities--especially border municipalities and regions--across our country. So I would just like to get your thoughts or comments on that financial responsibility that you've taken. Is that a responsibility that is given to you by the provincial or federal government, or is that just something that Niagara assumes, based on its location to the border?

[Peter Partington]

Well, in some cases, as I mentioned, Mr. Dykstra, such as the crisis we had a few years ago, we have reacted instinctively. We felt it was our obligation to do it. We spent the money that was necessary first, way above and beyond what the normal costs would be. And we went to the provincial and federal governments after the fact. But our taxpayers were there first, and we're pleased that we did that.

When we talk about the cost, as I indicated, we bear the cost proudly. We see the value of having immigrants, whether they come in as landed immigrants or refugee claimants, who settle in Niagara. And it seems to me, under this Bill C-11--we've done a quick estimate--to the extent that the number of days before the first interview would be reduced from the average of 14 or 15 down to eight, there would probably be a very modest cost savings, about $22,000, to the region. With respect to savings for social service costs through Ontario Works, they would probably be in the neighbourhood of $125,000 to $150,000.

But I want to underline that it's not the cost that matters but rather the importance to the people who are coming here to claim permanent status as residents of Canada. That says everything about their ability to start fresh in a new land quickly, to move ahead, to maintain their self-esteem, and to look after themselves the way they should. So even though I talk about the savings there could be, this goes directly to assisting immigrants, in this case refugees, in a much better way than what currently exists.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I want to steer the next part of the conversation to one of the issues we struggle with here and why the bill is before us. From a federal perspective, we want to do what you're doing in Niagara, and that is help more refugees.

We need to help more true refugees than just those who apply because we have a system that allows them to do so, as we can see in terms of some of the issues we have faced with some of the countries that have individuals who have come here.

It would seem to me that in the region of Niagara, the region of Peel, and the region of Windsor, from your perspective on the funds that you are spending, you want to spend them and you want, from a responsible perspective, to make sure you are helping those who are really in need.

[Peter Partington]

Absolutely. To the extent we improve the system to do that, that is what should be done. To the extent there may be people claiming refugee status--we talked about safe countries--who really don't qualify, Canada is governed by fair laws.

To the extent people don't qualify, they should be applying for immigrant status the normal way, through the proper channels. I think that's probably fair. You need fairness in the system, and that is what keeps us all moving forward. That's what creates good government in Canada.

I think that moving forward with Bill C-11 takes us along that way.

[Ted Salci]

Mr. Dykstra, I'd like to weigh in, if I may.

As the mayor, many times I have refugees coming to my office. In their country, of course, the mayor has different powers. They come to my office and they are anxious to have their matters dealt with. They're living at very loose ends. They're usually employed and want to be able to get on with their lives.

I believe if we could expedite the process to get these people settled and accommodated and productive, it's going to help everybody. It gets them off our social welfare costs, and it certainly helps them become productive Canadian residents and citizens.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Salci, I just wanted to ask you a question. I know Mr. St-Cyr made a point. I understand what he's saying from a refugee claim perspective, that an individual fleeing another country doesn't necessarily have time to grab an extra set of clothes, much less a BlackBerry to send out an e-mail. I agree with him on that.

I think what you are referring to is that once they are here and in process, we have the capabilities from a technology perspective to assist that individual to ensure they get a fair hearing.

[Ted Salci]

Yes, that's exactly the point I wish to make.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you. Those are my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Partington, and Your Worship Mayor Salci.

We have similar geography where I come from. The city of Surrey and Delta borders on the United States.

What is the population of the Niagara region and the city of Niagara?

[Peter Partington]

The region of Niagara has a population of 435,000. The city of Niagara Falls is one of 12 communities.

[Ted Salci]

Niagara Falls has a population of about 82,000.