Evidence of meeting #20 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appeal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
Alice Wong Conservative Richmond, BC
For the designated safe country, again, we were given the explanation that there will be specific populations in specific countries that will be considered as vulnerable. Also, for the list there will be assessments done by panel experts, and we will seek the input of the United Nations High Commissioner, who will look into the human rights situation.
I'm going to share my time with Mr. Rick Dykstra.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Gustavo, I have a question for you. We had the President of Mexico speak in the House of Commons this morning, and one of the things he stated was that we sincerely hope that the solution this Parliament is studying, through comprehensive amendments to the refugee law, will also serve as a bridge that will enable us to renew our exchange of visitors. He's supportive of the changes to our refugee laws, in terms of trying to make this process a better one.
I understand your perspective and I understand your frustration, but in 2009 we had over 10,000 applications from Mexico, of which 90% were rejected because they were not to be considered....
Mary Jo, I would just like to have Gustavo listen to what I have to say, because this is really important.
We had to make a decision. It wasn't a decision to try to hurt anyone; it was a decision to try to help unclog a system. I've read a little bit about your background, and I understand the fear that you lived under in Mexico, but I also understand that there are a number of Mexicans who have filed refugee applications that are simply not refugee applications. We want to unclog the system so that we can help the people who need the help and who need to come to Canada to be safe.
I just want to know if that is not the kind of system that brought you to Canada, and wouldn't you want the system in Canada to work?
7:55 p.m.
Refugee Claimant, Romero House
About the numbers in 2009, as you know, there has been increased violence in Mexico since 2007. The numbers having been rising during this war, and a lot of people have been affected by this violence. I can't speak about whether or not there were bogus claims in 2009, but you can see the numbers increasing in Mexico due to increasing violence from this war.
8 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
The frustration you have is that the system takes so long. Part of the reason for that is people are making applications for refugee status in this country who are not true refugees. This is why we're trying to correct the system. This is what we're trying to achieve. I just want you to understand that part of what we're doing here is to try to make it a better system.
8 p.m.
Member of the Ontario Sanctuary Coalition, Founder of the Romero House for Refugees, As an Individual
Mr. Dykstra, could I say something, please?
To follow your logic—and I don't think Gustavo would say this himself.... He was rejected by the refugee board for the cookie-cutter reason that all of the Mexicans received: that they were bogus, that Mexico was a democracy, and that democracies support human rights. So in dealing with what you call a “backlog”, we have had a lot of legitimate refugees caught up in or labelled as “bogus”.
When Canadians hear the story of people like Gustavo and about bank managers, lawyers, writers, and business owners who have come here and been treated as bogus refugees, I do not think they want that. So I understand that—
8 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Mary Jo, in the polls that we have received, 80% of Canadians want changes to this refugee system because it doesn't work.
What I'm trying to say—
8 p.m.
Member of the Ontario Sanctuary Coalition, Founder of the Romero House for Refugees, As an Individual
And 100% of refugees do.
8 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Mr. Chair, on a point of order...[Inaudible--Editor]
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Stop the clock--not that it matters, because we're way over our time.
Mr. Karygiannis has a point of order.
8 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Mr. Chair, I think courtesy should be given to the witness to answer the questions without being cut off.
8 p.m.
Voices
[Inaudible--Editor]
8 p.m.
Conservative
8 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Mary Jo, if it's a cookie-cutter approach, 10% of those who were received were approved as refugees here in this country. The rest of the world says we have a very good system. We understand that it needs change. What we're trying to accomplish, and I hope this is all I can get out of you, is that indeed we need to improve the current system we have because it's simply not working.
8 p.m.
Member of the Ontario Sanctuary Coalition, Founder of the Romero House for Refugees, As an Individual
Mr. Dykstra, I am accepting your genuine concern, and it's shared by all of us, but we have to find a more constructive way than having a government concerned about trade with Mexico and tourism and flying in the face of every human rights report about Mexico.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Unfortunately, we'd like to hear more, but we're well over time. We have another group coming in after you.
Ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you for your contribution to the committee. We appreciate your time and your comments. Thank you very much.
This meeting is suspended.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
We're going to continue on with the meeting.
Ladies and gentlemen, we're nearing the end of a three-hour session—actually it's six hours—so I hope we don't appear too giddy. We're doing our best and trying to hear as many witnesses as possible.
We have here in Ottawa, Sharalyn Jordan, who is with the Rainbow Refugee Committee. In Toronto, by video conference, we have, from the Kurdish Community and Information Centre, Huseyin Pinarbasi.
8:05 p.m.
Huseyin Pinarbasi President, Kurdish Community and Information Centre
Yes, it's Huseyin Pinarbasi.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Thank you. I just need to identify you, sir. I don't do very well with names.
We also have Dogan Dogan, research analyst. Thank you for coming.
8:05 p.m.
Dogan Dogan Research Analyst, Kurdish Community and Information Centre
That's right, sir. Thank you. I appreciate it.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Your organization and Ms. Jordan will each have up to seven minutes to make a presentation to the committee.
We will start with Ms. Jordan from the Rainbow Refugee Committee. Ms. Jordan, you have up to seven minutes to make a presentation. Thank you for coming.
8:05 p.m.
Sharalyn Jordan Rainbow Refugee Committee
Thank you.
On behalf of the Rainbow Refugee Committee in Vancouver, I want to thank you for the opportunity to present our position on Bill C-11.
Canada's refugee protection system is held up as a model for others, not because it's perfect, but because it comes closer than most to upholding our international commitments to protect the lives and safety of those who face persecution. This core purpose must be front and centre in any reform efforts.
Canada has been a global leader in refugee protection for those at risk of persecution due to sexual orientation and gender identity. We were one of the first countries to recognize that homophobia and transphobia can result in persecution; 21 countries now do the same. This protection is vital in a world where lesbian, gay, bi, trans, and queer people continue to be persecuted in at least 80 countries globally.
Rainbow Refugee supports efforts to create a faster system, reducing the time claimants spend in uncertainty. We see efficiency, fairness, and effectiveness as complementary goals. However, we are deeply concerned that Bill C-11 undermines fairness and that lesbian, gay, bi, and trans refugee claimants in particular will be disadvantaged. These concerns are based on a decade of experience focused on this work and are shared by other LGBT refugee support groups—SOY Express in Toronto and AGIR in Montreal.
Our members have left countries where they have been under surveillance, arrested, imprisoned, extorted, and, for some, tortured because of their sexuality or gender identity. Survival has required keeping silent, being vigilant, and remaining hidden. The silencing impacts of persecution and trauma do not disappear on arrival. I know one man who spent 27 days in detention before working up the nerve to tell his duty counsel that he was gay. What kind of interview would he give at eight days? The expedited timeframe proposed in the background to Bill C-11 will not give LGBT claimants a fair chance to prepare themselves or their documents. Hearings held with poor evidence will result in poor decisions and more appeals—not fair, effective, or efficient.
We welcome the long-awaited implementation of the refugee appeal division. The right to a full merits-based review is fundamental to fairness. This appeal should consider all relevant evidence, not only new or previously unavailable evidence. This is important to us because country condition evidence for LGBT claims is very hard to find. Our members bring all the evidence they can to their hearings.
I know a gay man who lost his PRRA because it only looks at new evidence. Canada was willing to deport this man to a country that criminalizes gays and lesbians because he had no new evidence to prove he would be targeted.
Humanitarian and compassionate applications are an absolutely critical safety net for lesbian, gay, bi, and trans people who are at risk of serious harm in their home countries. Determining when homophobia and transphobia cross the threshold and become persecution is challenging. Board members struggle to make this call. Good information is sparse, and the gap between laws on paper and on-the-ground conditions is large.
Consider the experience of one of our members and where the harms against her crossed into persecution. Angela is from a West African country. She was beaten by her father when he learned she was a lesbian. Her church expelled her. Rumours spread. Townspeople began throwing rocks at her window. It became impossible for her to go outside without being harassed. She narrowly escaped from a gang of young men threatening to rape her and she has a knife wound from the attack.
She was not granted protection under sections 96 or 97. The board member found her credible, but determined that state protection would be available because laws in her country only criminalize male homosexuality. Angela has been in Canada for over two years. She works in an office and has begun a relationship with a woman she's met at work. She has found a church that has embraced her. But provisions in Bill C-11 would leave Angela without the option of an H and C application.
If we are going to define the limits of refugee protection this stringently, then we must allow for the safety net of a humanitarian and compassionate appeal. I urge you to eliminate the ban on H and C applications for claimants and to omit the unworkable restriction on considering risk in an H and C application.
We also strongly oppose giving the minister power to create a designated country list that denies access to appeal based on nationality. The list violates principles of equality before the law, has the potential to politicize protection, and leaves life or death decisions in the hands of one person. The designated safe country list is profoundly unsafe for lesbian, gay, bi, and trans refugee claimants. It would be perilously easy to designate a country as safe based on inaccurate or insufficient information about the on-the-ground realities.
A safe country list cannot accommodate the complexity and flux that currently exists in persecution and protection for lesbian, gay, bi, or trans people. Could Brazil be on this list? It hosts the largest gay pride parade in the world, with over three million people celebrating, but it also has the highest rate of homophobic murders in the world. Would it be on the safe list because these murders are reported, or would it be on the unsafe list because the murders happen in the first place and the police seem unable to curb them? South Africa recognizes same sex marriage and yet human rights organizations there report 10 cases a week in which lesbians are targeted for corrective rape and the police fail to investigate. We've heard Bogota described by one man as a great place to be gay. Another gay man described it as a terrifying city, after spending 10 years on the run trying to escape death threats. Within the same country of origin, people's vulnerability and the viability of state protection vary considerably, based on a person's social class, race, gender, religion, and social networks. It is precisely when country conditions appear safe on paper that refugee decisions on people who are lesbian, gay, bi, or trans are most complex and the safety net of an appeal is most needed.