Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 27th, 2010

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I'm just asking you now if you could list out for me three or four specific recommendations that you think would assist us in making this bill stronger.

[Sohabe Hashmi]

I didn't indicate that I didn't have time to prepare. I didn't go into every aspect of the bill. As I said, I'm here as a Canadian. I'm not here as a politician. I'm not here as a policy maker.

One thing I would like to see in here—I don't know if other organizations are proposing this or not; if they are, good.... I'm strongly proposing a more efficient system. It seems to me that the files are being passed around in the offices. These are things that you guys have to look into, to find out if there is efficiency. Why is it taking so long?

[Dr. Shahid Hashmi]

Recommendation one is to deal with files efficiently, by qualified people and not politically.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

The chairman of the Immigration and Review Board was a witness at this committee. His organization is coming back again next week to respond to further questions. He indicated that, based on the new legislation, he would indeed be able to fulfill the exact requirement and submission that you've just made. So that would in fact be done through this bill. So you would support that?

[Dr. Shahid Hashmi]

We would definitely support efficiency and qualification, if Bill C-11 will stop inefficiency.

The second recommendation is that you cannot deal with time by days. It has to be case by case.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I don't understand what you mean by that.

[Dr. Shahid Hashmi]

Each person is unique; each refugee is unique.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

None of us would argue with that.

[Dr. Shahid Hashmi]

You may need various amounts of time to deal with their cases.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

None of us would disagree with you that each application is unique, but Sohabe just said that we need to make the system more efficient; we need to make it fairer. We can't have a system that doesn't have some general rules and regulations within it, some legislation that actually allows us to move the process quicker. Well, maybe you think this. I certainly don't.

We have a backlog of 60,000 individuals right now. I would suggest—and you would agree with me—that the system is not being fair to any of those individuals, because they have to sit on a waiting list. The whole concept and principle behind this bill is to ensure fairness and efficiency. If there are pieces within this bill, and each of the parties is going to forward some amendments to this bill....

What do you think we should do to meet the objective that you indicated of being more efficient, to be able to serve people in a more direct way?

[Dr. Shahid Hashmi]

You misunderstood me when I said more time was needed.

Yes, you must have a system. I'll give you an example. If it were filed just one day after.... We just mentioned that one of the cases was filed late. You definitely have to have a system and a procedure, otherwise it will be a never-ending thing. But, for example, there was a file that was one day late and it was rejected. It took five years of taxpayers' money to keep those two refugees in this country, and it was going on and on and on. I don't think that was fair.

The other recommendation is to hire more qualified people, and then you won't have a backlog. The backlog is costing the taxpayers more money. We need to hire more people if we have a backlog. The $100 million that the federal government is spending and the $100 million the provincial government is spending on welfare for refugees is way less than what they are spending on employees. If you spent it on hiring more, Canadians would have more jobs, and at the same time the decisions would be made much faster. I'm sure if you had one officer handling one case—though in some cases you would have to change that—it would probably be more appropriate, more efficient, and more fair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Excuse me, sir. Unfortunately, we've run out of time. Our time has come.

I want to thank the members of the CanPak Chamber of Commerce for your contribution to the committee.

Thank you kindly, sirs.

[Dr. Shahid Hashmi]

Thank you very much for giving us a chance to come before the committee.

[Sohabe Hashmi]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

This meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We can start. I call the meeting to order.

We're reconvening this meeting. We have three groups, one of which isn't here yet, from Calgary by video conference, but we do have before us in Ottawa the Montreal City Mission, with Sylvain Thibault. Good evening to you, sir. With him is Kemoko Kamara. Mr. Thibault is the coordinator of the project refugee program and Kemoko Kamara is a volunteer.

Then we have by video conference from Toronto, Ms. Mary Jo Leddy.

Ms. Leddy, I'll ask you to introduce the groups you're representing. It says here Romero House, but I gather you're saying there's another group. We have Gustavo Gutierrez and we have Gift Ogi.

I'll let you proceed, Ms. Leddy. The three of you have up to seven minutes to make a presentation, and then the committee members will probably have some questions for you.

You may start.

[Mary Jo Leddy, Member of the Ontario Sanctuary Coalition, Founder of the Romero House for Refugees, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Merci beaucoup.

My name is Mary Jo Leddy and I have lived and worked with refugees for more than 20 years at a place called Romero House, which is a welcome centre for refugees. I also teach theology at the University of Toronto and am a member of the Order of Canada.

I have attended hundreds of refugee hearings and hundreds and hundreds of interviews with immigration officers. I believe that at Romero House we now have a collective wisdom about the immigration system, about its problems and about how it could and should work. It's an accumulated wisdom, and we don't have time to deal with all of it at this time.

During these 20 years I've also been an active member of the Ontario Sanctuary Coalition, which is a member of the national sanctuary movement, with members of churches all over the country. Over the years, various churches have offered sanctuary to refugees who were in danger of being deported back to places where their lives would be at risk.

Given the limits of this presentation, I would like to focus simply on three points, and I will be brief. The first is that Bill C-11, as proposed, will provoke a massive increase in sanctuary cases in churches.

Second, having a faster decision-making process and a fairer one is imperative.

Third, we'd like to speak about the unforeseen consequences of the designated country list.

First, on sanctuary, we predict that because of all the reasons we have stated in the sanctuary report, Bill C-11, unless it is amended, will result in a massive increase in requests for sanctuary. Not all of these requests will be granted, but some will--many more than is the case now. Our experience is that very ordinary groups, when faced with a real person whose life is in danger, will offer sanctuary.

I'm here to say, make no mistake, unless this bill is amended, the incidents of sanctuary in churches will increase. And I'm here to say, for the sanctuary movement, we would much prefer that this bill be amended.

On the second point, faster and fairer, it often seems that this is only a concern of the government, but it is the concern of every refugee to have a faster determination process and a fairer one. On a daily basis, they know the cost of the slow and cumbersome and unworkable process we have now.

I want to invite Gift Ogi, who's a member of Romero House, to say this in her own words.

[Gift Ogi, Romero House]

My name is Gift Ogi. I'm from Nigeria. I have been in Canada for two years now. I moved to the shelter. When I was in the shelter I met a lady who introduced me to a lawyer. I found out I wasn't getting good results from him, so I had to move to Romero House. When staying at Romero House, I spoke with them because I needed a lawyer and they helped me out. I got a new lawyer. The new lawyer I appreciate so much. She's really doing a good job.

One thing I'm concerned about is that I left my country because my husband was abusing me and my first son. It's so painful that I left my two children back home. I don't really know what their situation is. They haven't been in school since I left. I would really like the government to help, and to see what they can do to help people like us. We need help quickly to bring our children here and give them a better life.

I feel so much pain because my children are there and I don't know how they are doing. I want to love them; I want to care for them. I want Canada to give them the best education a mother expects for them. It would be so much appreciated if something could be done.

Thank you very much.

[Mary Jo Leddy]

Thank you, Gift.

Our third point is about the designated countries list.

The crucial question here, as I'm sure you know by now, is who designates a country as safe and why. The bill as presented would place this power in the hands of the minister and officials of the government. This would politicize the refugee determination process even further and ultimately discredit it more. Canadians have often mocked the political patronage appointments to the IRB. This use of the designated country list would only further jeopardize the independence of the refugee determination process.

Until this process is completely separate from political interest it will not be credible--not to the refugees and not to the citizens of this country.

The political interests involved in the designated country list are many. Today we heard about the efforts of President Calderon of Mexico to convince the Canadian government that Mexico is safe. Tomorrow it will be another country.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Leddy, excuse me, you have up to one minute left.

[Mary Jo Leddy]

Okay.

I'm going to turn this over to Gustavo Gutierrez, a refugee from a country—Mexico—presumed to be safe by the minister and officials at the IRB.

[Gustavo Gutierrez, Refugee Claimant, Romero House]

My name is Gustavo Gutierrez. I come from Mexico. I have a bachelor's degree in psychology and recognized training from the FBI, the New Mexico police department, and the El Paso police department.

I was in Juarez city working as a homicide detective. Now it is known as murder city. I was promoted in the new criminal justice system in the state of Chihuahua. My picture was on billboards in the state of Chihuahua. I tried to work hard to make changes in the criminal justice system. I came here because I received threats. Thirty-six of my police were killed when I fled from another place in Mexico. Then I finally came to Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Sir, could you finish? I'd appreciate that.

[Gustavo Gutierrez]

Okay.

When I had my first hearing I was denied. I brought a lot of evidence of my work, the threats I received, and all the information I had, but I felt that nobody saw that. Nobody checked the case. We have to have our cases seen as particular cases.

I was being treated like I was just another Mexican, like I could go back and my life would not be at risk because Mexico is a tourist place; it's a place we trade with. But it's not true. We have to see that point.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you very much, sir.

We're going to move on to our next guest, who represents the Montreal City Mission.

Gentlemen, you have up to seven minutes between you. Thank you for coming.