Evidence of meeting #21 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
I will ask Mr. Guilbault to speak a little later about training, especially the legal training that we provide our decision-makers with.
8:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
With respect to the last part of your question, our immigration division is already quite independent and its operations are carried out by civil servants. I can guarantee that quite often the Border Services Agency does not agree with the decisions that our decision-makers make. That is the reality.
The Immigration and Refugee Board is not part of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. It is an independent administrative tribunal. Mr. Goodman, the chair, does not answer to the minister but rather to Parliament through the minister. Our organization is independent and I think that its history testifies to that.
If there is any time left I will ask Mr. Guilbault to speak to training.
8:30 p.m.
François Guilbault Senior Legal Advisor, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
During our training we make sure that each decision-maker is able to fulfil his or her duties as skilfully as possible. That obviously means that they have to be able to express empathy with asylum seekers who are more vulnerable than other individuals appealing to the administrative tribunal. Rest assured that we will continue to ensure that each decision-maker, new or not, will continue to display the requisite empathy for asylum seekers.
With respect to the independence of these individuals, once again rest assured. All decision-makers are independent. Independence, from a legal perspective, means the absence of any undue influence. Whether the individuals are appointed by order in council or whether they are civil servants, we make sure that each decision-maker has sufficient independence to be able to make decisions that are consistent with the law.
8:30 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee members received correspondence that was exchanged between you and the minister. This correspondence dealt with timeframes under the regulations. It is quite interesting to see that the minister addresses his requests to you and suggests that you include certain time periods rather than others in the regulations. On the other hand, this is an example of the independence you spoke about, that is that you will be the one adopting regulations with respect to time periods. However, this also shows that regardless of the discussions that take place within this committee on the bill, there is no guarantee that the time periods members will agree on will be those that are retained.
Am I mistaken?
8:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Pursuant to Bill C-11, the tribunal sets the timeline, under the tribunal's rules. As I explained earlier, we have a consultation process for any new rule that the tribunal seeks. This includes consulting interested parties, for example the Canadian Council for Refugees, lawyers, the Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association, and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. And we will consult them. We know that they have made presentations to this committee.
You know about this exchange of letters. We accept the information or the department's recommendations, but we have to undertake our own consultations before proposing any rules setting out any figure.
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
So, as parliamentarians, if we want to ensure a minimum wait time for problem cases, we would have no choice but to include it in the act, pure and simple. Otherwise, it would depend on the result of your consultations and this could eventually change, depending on the concerns of the moment.
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
I will ask my colleague to answer, since this is a question of a legal nature.
8:35 p.m.
Senior Legal Advisor, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
I totally agree. If legislators want to reduce timelines to a minimum, it would be preferable that they indicate the minimum processing time of a hearing. If legislators want the chair to set rules on timelines, as is the case in the current act and bill, then the chair, in consultation with interested parties, would have to set out these timelines.
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Your department does include a legal tribunal. There is an administrative aspect to this tribunal, in that you have to manage your workforce, personnel, rooms, etc. You have to be able to forecast the number of claims that will come in, that will be processed, and that will go back out again.
The minister has often told us that this new system will allow us to more quickly deport fraudulent claimants and that it will in fact discourage fraudulent claims. What it does not say, but we can assume, is that under the same logic, this system will also allow us to more quickly process legitimate claimants. Indeed, if illegitimate claims are processed quickly, this should also apply to legitimate claims. Legitimate claimants should therefore be more numerous in applying for refugee status in Canada, knowing that their claim will be dealt with quickly.
Have you estimated the additional volume of claims this will represent?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
We do not believe that we can competently make forecasts regarding this new system. We can make projections under the current system, but due to all the factors that you have mentioned and over which we have no control or experience, we cannot really make projections. So it is the Department of Citizenship and Immigration that adopted and presented projections when it implemented its new policy.
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
How do you determine the minimum time period needed to provide efficient service if you have not been able to forecast the volume of claims?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
We have accepted and used the forecast made by Citizenship and Immigration, which believes that, under the new system, we will receive about 22,500 claims per year. And so our calculations are based on this figure.
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Eventually, if Canada receives more claims due to its processing speed, this will in fact slow down the process and you will have to readjust your timelines.
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Indeed, if the number is far superior to 22,500, we would then need more resources in order to maintain the same timelines.
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
All right.
As regards staffing, various witnesses who appeared before this committee told us that a process similar to that used by the Chief Electoral Officer to appoint returning officers would be more appropriate. We are told that this model would be more useful than the general public service staffing model.
Do you agree with me on this point? What do you think of this proposal?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
As I indicated, and as also indicated by Mr. Goodman when he answered your question the last time, we did plan on using a hybrid process. There would be a process open to existing public servants, but another for the general population.
From a practical point of view, when we announce a position open to those outside of the public service, even only for 24 or 48 hours, we receive 1,000 to 1,500 applications, sometimes even more. Obviously, we couldn't advertise a decision-maker position at the Refugee Protection Division for just 24 hours.
So, if we have to run a competition open to those outside the public service exclusively, we would expect to get about 5,000 applications. We would have to find a way to whittle this number down. We can't run 5,000 interviews or administer 5,000 tests. Another aspect of this problem is that it would have a negative impact on existing staff because they would think that we don't have confidence in them.
We will maintain our staff's productivity as long as the current act is in force, in order to not go to the new system with a tremendous backlog.
The other problem—
8:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Two seconds.
8:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Executive Director, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
The other problem would be that we would have to repeat the whole process every time there is a vacant position in future, in other words we would have to interview 1,500 people for every open position.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
To Mr. Hill, CBSA had an audit and at that time the auditor said that you needed a better computer system program to track where people are, who they are, etc. Do you have the funds now in your budget to have such a tracking program, the IT program?
