Evidence of meeting #26 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Member, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
That was the very basis for our discussions with the Government of Quebec, as we recognize the distinctiveness of the Quebec legislation.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Is that distinctiveness taken into account in your exams and your quality control, or do you use the same standard exam that's used on a federal level?
4:35 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
Two different examples.
4:35 p.m.
Member, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
Following our discussions with the Government of Quebec, an enhanced exam was developed specifically to take into account the distinctiveness of the Quebec legislation. In addition, over the last few years, we have been including the study of Quebec legislation in our regular curriculum, since many of our members were practising under that legislation.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
A little earlier, we talked about the organization's operating costs. I had a bit of a chuckle when I saw the logo on your presentation's cover page. Many people have stated that a lot of money was invested. I'm not sure how that logo helps in protecting the public. Your offices in downtown Toronto—I don't remember the name of the street anymore—were also mentioned.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
Member, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
It's hard to react to allegations that are so broad. Our society needs offices to do its work. Those offices have to be adequate and suitable.
This is the first time I've heard the logo being attacked this way. It's just a logo. I can't tell you...
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you guys for coming.
I'm sure, as MPs, that we've all heard of complaints, sad stories--horror stories--of people who have lost thousands of dollars to these disreputable consultants. Worse yet, people's files have been rejected because of poor representation.
From your experience, what kind of misconduct is undertaken by some of these disreputable consultants? I'm going to get to the ghost ones, so we'll do that as a separate section.
4:35 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
In terms of our members of CSIC or the ghost agents?
4:35 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
What are our complaints largely focused upon? I think that's a very good question.
The largest number of complaints that CSIC receives with regard to its members are fee disputes, number one; secondly, protection of client property, which is return of original documents; and the third level of complaints we receive is with regard to competency of service, where the client feels that perhaps they have not been properly represented. Obviously some of those may be justified, and some may simply be situations where the client didn't get the result they wanted and feel that the representation wasn't sufficiently rigorous or within the law.
Those are the three main areas of complaints that we receive.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB
With those complaints about CSIC members, how do you handle these incidents of misconduct or complaint? I'm talking about the ones where you've determined there has been some misconduct. How do you handle that, and how big a problem is this?
4:35 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
Well, CSIC has an independent complaints and discipline department, with a manager who is a senior member of staff. We have six individuals within the complaints and discipline department who investigate and make reports on incidents, and who investigate and do analysis.
Once a complaint is deemed to be significant, an investigation is put in place, and a report is then generated for the complaints and discipline manager, who has several different mechanisms for rectifying the complaint. It can simply be a letter to the members, essentially chastising them for the action and requiring them to take corrective measures.
If it is a more serious matter, it can be referred to the discipline hearings panel for a full hearing. Those are the 13 hearings I referred to in my presentation that are currently going forward. These are more serious matters. The manager has determined that a letter or simple fine against the member to obtain corrective action is insufficient, and the referral to the hearings panel must be made to look at whether the member should lose the privilege to be a member of the society and an authorized representative.
We have a whole graduated scheme of enforcement of the code of professional conduct and the bylaws of the society. The complaints and discipline manager has the ability to utilize whatever mechanism she has at her disposal to address the problem the member has created. That could be everything from deciding that the complaint has no merit, all the way, as I said, to a reference to the hearings panel, which could result in the member being deprived of membership in the society.
4:40 p.m.
Member, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
If I may add to that--because as a lawyer it appeals to me that natural justice questions have been asked by members of this committee--beyond the discipline council's decision, there is an appeals level that is completely independent from the first one; different decision-makers will take a fresh look at the first decision.
I was one of the designers of that, and being an international arbitrator, it was very important to me that natural justice be respected. There is always oversight from the common courts for the decision-making process, but it was very important for us in the design of the system to make sure that if it got to the oversight level they would recognize natural justice was respected throughout all the processes.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB
Now just to get on to ghost consultants, you were saying you guys receive many of the complaints against ghost consultants. They're not members of CSIC, but what types of complaints were you getting about them? And within the same question, what do you do when you get a complaint, or what can you do?
4:40 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
We're obviously somewhat hamstrung, as Mr. Oliphant mentioned. Clearly CSIC can't take action against non-members, but we have an intelligence department that over the last two years has been actively compiling information in a very sophisticated database on the activities of ghost consultants, and we've been reporting that information to enforcement, to CBSA and the RCMP.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB
How do you see this changing with this new legislation?
4:40 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants
With the new legislation, obviously there is now going to be greater impetus to that function and I think a great deal more urgency on the part of CBSA and RCMP to take action where they can. Now, obviously a lot of the complaints we receive are from outside of Canada, and that raises the issue of how you deal with things internationally. The minister is focused very positively on building relationships in countries where there are significant problems.
You asked about the problems we're seeing with regard to the ghost agents. They tend to be much more egregious: fraudulent documentation; blatant fraud, cases in which individuals have been told they can qualify when there is in fact no likelihood of the individual ever meeting Canadian immigration standards; blatant abuse of fees, fee levels that are just extraordinary being demanded for services that are unobtainable in the Canadian system; rash promises, guarantees. We're seeing all of these things from the ghost consultants.
4:40 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Migration Institute
Mr. Uppal, in fact this harkens back to our presentation about this bill closing those legal loopholes. The penalty provisions are very simple. In 2008, when this committee considered the immigration consultants, CBSA appeared before this committee and told the committee that they tried to go after ghost consultants and the justice department told them that it was a civil matter. That's in your minutes. You can refer to them.
We believe that bringing in specific penalty provisions gives these enforcement agencies the legal tools they need to go after these people. We may not be able to get the people overseas, but we can certainly get the people in our own backyard, in Canada. We're doing a lot of this.
The other thing that CSIC has done is to spend a considerable amount to educate the consumer. CSIC took out a shark ad. You may have seen it. It showed a great white shark with a seal in its mouth. It was called the “prey campaign”. CSIC has also launched a toll-free help line for individuals who may be in detention or may require the assistance of an immigration practitioner.
CSIC is trying to educate the consumer so that the consumer will be able to make the proper decision not to go with the ghost or an unqualified individual but to go with someone who is qualified, who is authorized and who is, very importantly, accountable.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB
Do you see these provisions and these penalties significantly cutting into ghost consultants' operations here?
4:45 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Migration Institute
We certainly hope so.
I can speak on behalf of CMI. As an immigration practitioner and someone who competes, who is out there, who has gone through the standards, who meets the standards, who renews his membership every two years, and who holds himself out to be competent, I absolutely do. The biggest frustration--I come from a Pakistani community--is that we see the ads in our local newspapers. They're not in English, they're in Urdu, but we see them. And there's not much we can do about that, because the teeth are not there. So now with Bill C-35 and the penalty provision specifically, the teeth are going to be there.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Thank you, Mr. Uppal.
We have two different clocks here, and I'm going to let Mr. Wrzesnewskyj ask a brief question.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Qayyum, could you forward to the committee--because we don't have time for an answer--the numbers of your members overseas, for both CMI and CSIC? You referenced them. What are the numbers, and how do they correspond to the ten most important source countries for immigrants to Canada?