Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 18th, 2010

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

This is one of my dilemmas. First of all, I called the Law Society of Upper Canada last week to find out about fees. What I was told was $5,150; $1,800 for their fee and $3,350 for insurance compensation. What I understand is the total fees for CSIC are $2,790.

[Philip Mooney]

We have to be careful to see how much we add up. The total amount of fees that we're actually paying, if you include now the levy for CMI, for the materials we must have, are closer to $3,600. And if you subtract from that the errors and omissions insurance of about $200, we're sitting at $3,400.

We did a survey of all of the law societies across the country. On average, a CSIC member pays 34% more than the average that a lawyer pays--

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So Ontario is--

[Philip Mooney]

--without errors and omissions insurance, so subtract errors and omissions insurance. As Warren said, that's driven by real estate and other high-cost transactions, whereas we're only talking about the practice of immigration; the fees to do that are much higher per person.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I'll try to get our legislative researcher to do some work on fees, because it's not adding up. I keep getting different stories.

[Philip Mooney]

We'd be happy to send you the survey that we did.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It must be easy to find out.

The other thing is the relationship between the association and the regulatory body. Other professions do have a regulatory body and an association. When I've met with immigration consultants they kind of confuse those two. They think of the regulator as a club and their association as something different. I'm trying to sort out your relationship as an association of professionals with a regulatory body that is, by nature, going to be more difficult for them.

[Philip Mooney]

The definition should be very simple because of the models that were used to set up the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants. Effectively, they're the law society, and we're the bar association. The bar association is voluntary.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

I want to make sure that I have understood properly.

Statutory and regulatory organizations were discussed. My understanding is that a statutory organization is an organization created pursuant to the act, while a regulatory organization is set up pursuant to the regulations.

In addition, unless I am mistaken, you say that Bill C-35 provisions are a good starting point, but the ideal institution in the medium term would be an organization created pursuant to the act.

Did I understand that part properly?

[Philip Mooney]

Logically speaking, yes. What I think I said was maybe in three or four years, if the better regulator is working perfectly, we'll say maybe it wasn't necessary, but it's a very good first step.

Theoretically—and I'm not speaking only for myself, but for many of our members—we think, perhaps because we believe we are influenced by the model of the law societies, that may be necessary in the long run.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

However, I feel that the advantage of including the provisions in the act has to do with independence. The organization would exist and would be shielded from political pressures of any kind, since its existence would be sanctioned by the act. For the organization's structure to be modified, Parliament would have to get involved. In terms of regulations, the minister can act directly. However, the minister would have the flexibility to make changes quickly if a problem arises.

How would you solve this dilemma? My understanding is that you feel that we should do a test run with an organization set up under the regulations, and later, if it goes well, to designate that organization formally pursuant to the act. Is that what you're saying?

[Philip Mooney]

I believe that in the interim it's just like the issue of dealing with ghost agents by making it an offence in the immigration act and making CBSA and the RCMP the enforcers.

This issue of the minister and the department having control over the regulator of immigration consultants is a direct reflection of the fact that they didn't have control in the past and don't like where it ended up.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Earlier, we talked about the advice issue and the fact that it was not necessary to refer, on certain websites you found too harsh, to immigration consultants.

That aside, do you believe that it is generally necessary for someone immigrating to Canada or wishing to get a visa for Canada to deal with an immigration consultant, or even a lawyer? Can individuals go through the process on their own?

[Philip Mooney]

Well, clearly, we all make a living, because other people agree. In general, if I could tell you from a practical standpoint, the reasons people come to us are either that they hate forms and are fearful of making a mistake, or they have no time. So they look to the advice of a professional, just as we all do for many different things in many different areas.

The other thing we found was that the further we get away from IRPA—which was a simpler piece of legislation with simpler rules when it came out—the more complex it becomes. So we have to thank you for adding complexity to the law, because it helps our business.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I understand your argument very well. There are many valid reasons for someone to go to an immigration consultant. However, you do say that it is not necessary. People whose case is fairly simple and who have the time could go through the process on their own.

[Tarek Allam]

I will answer in French.

The three of us are members of a group called CICII. It was maybe not at the last meeting, but rather at the one before, here in Ottawa, that we were quoted some statistics. If I'm not mistaken, about 30% to 40% of applications are returned because the information is incomplete or the answers are inadequate.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Are those applications completed by applicants themselves?

[Tarek Allam]

Yes, in most cases.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

So, applications completed by consultants are usually not returned because they are correct.

[Tarek Allam]

Usually, as far as the educational component goes, during our seminars and other meetings, we are in direct contact with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Immigration-Québec, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada and its Quebec counterpart, and Service Canada. We try to pinpoint the mistakes people make most often in order to correct them and let our members know. We have a website and a discussion board. We are always trying to make improvements, and we send our members information about how to correct the way the forms are filled out and delivered.

Therefore, I feel that we are working on improving the departmental system, which is overly complicated.

[Timothy Morson]

I would like to add that Citizenship and Immigration Canada recognizes that some applicants have to get professional help. For that reason, some embassies have made arrangements with large organizations, like the DFS in India. On the embassy's or the high commission's website, those who want to get a visitor visa or a study permit are even encouraged to use the services offered by the DFS.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

How much does that cost, on average?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

We've come to the end.

Mr. Allam, Mr. Morson, Mr. Mooney, and Mr. Creates, thank you for your contribution to the committee. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

This meeting is adjourned.