Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 1st, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Yes, because then the potential immigrant would know who's good and who's not good.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

That's a very good idea.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Uppal.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for appearing.

I'd first like you to further explain something you mentioned in your opening address regarding government amendments concerning paralegals and good governance, and why they're necessary. Could you just expand further on those government amendments?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Paralegals fall under the regulatory authority of the provincial law society. Essentially, the law society recognizes a lawyer, and the lawyer is responsible for the conduct of the paralegal under their supervision. So if we're recognizing lawyers for purposes of immigration conduct, we ought also to recognize those who are normally regulated by the law society, who help them with immigration cases.

It's just that simple. I think we would clarify that a lawyer's not going to go offside if he has some of the work on an immigration file done by his properly trained and licensed registered paralegal.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Good. Thank you for clarifying that.

The opposition has raised something a couple of times. They've said that the bill focuses on the integrity of the system and not on consumer protection. Could I get your views on that?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Well, I see the two as being related. I think that might be a false dichotomy. I think part of the integrity of the system is to protect consumers and vice versa.

It's important to understand that these amendments are being made in tandem with amendments to the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act, which Parliament has adopted and which will allow for complaints to be registered against not-for-profit corporations and for investigations to happen on the basis of complaints.

That enhances consumer protection generally. But because the designated regulatory body for immigration consultants will be incorporated under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act, we believe that will provide the legal platform for consumer protection.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Some of these immigration consultants--or a lot of them--make pretty good money. A couple of witnesses were concerned that the penalty or fine of $50,000 is not enough, that it won't deter illegal behaviour. What are your thoughts on that?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I've heard that this has been discussed at committee, and if there are suggestions to enhance the penalties, I would have no objection in principle, as long as the changes were made consistently across the board for all offences contemplated in the act or in the bill. We wouldn't want, say, to raise the penalty for one particular offence without a proportionate adjustment for the other offences contemplated in the act. So yes, I think I'm open to that.

I understand that Ms. Chow has suggested extending the limit on prosecutions. The bill currently goes from three to five years and she's proposing no limit. Again, I would have no objection to that if the committee, in its wisdom, were to adopt such an amendment.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Okay. Also in your opening remarks, you mentioned immigration consultants abroad. Some of the concerns and complaints we've heard from witnesses were clearly violations that occurred outside of our borders, with crooked consultants in other countries.

You mentioned visiting other countries and working with counterparts. Can you give us a little more detail on that and also on any updates you may have had in the last few weeks?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The most frustrating part is that even if we have the best laws and enforcement domestically, we are limited in how we can affect the operation of unscrupulous agents abroad, where perhaps most of the exploitation occurs. That is why I've made a very deliberate effort, as part of our broader crackdown on unscrupulous consultants, to use our diplomatic leverage with foreign governments that are major source countries for immigration to Canada, to encourage them to adopt and enforce laws regulating the profession.

As you know, in some of our source countries, such as India and China, there's a large industry of people who will facilitate applicants for visas or immigration to Canada. They often furnish them with counterfeit documents or really bad advice, and often the exploitation is done in a ham-fisted way.

I know of one case where an immigration consultant in Jalandhar, in the Punjab state of India, took at least a quarter of a million dollars from applicants for student visas. He submitted what clearly were ridiculously fraudulent applications on their behalf--like bad photocopies of bank statements--that he knew, presumably, our visa officers would detect. But he didn't care because he'd already taken the cash. So a rejection letter from CIC doesn't seem to hurt his business line. This is a real problem.

That's why I effectively lobbied the Indian government. I'm pleased to say they gave us a commitment that by the end of this year their cabinet will adopt and submit to the Lok Sabha, the Indian parliament, significant improvements to their emigration act for the regulation of consultants, with a specific focus on student recruiters.

I also raised the issue of enforcement. I have to say that some of the state police agencies, such as those in Maharashtra state and in the national capital region around Delhi, have been very helpful in working with our high commission officials in pursuing prosecutions.

I did raise this most forcefully with the first minister of Punjab. He committed to assign a director general of the state, together with the chief of police, to work directly with our consulate in enhancing cooperation on the prosecution of immigration violations.

I raised similar issues with and got similar positive responses from the Government of China.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Minister, I have a brief question.

Most members of Parliament have a story that's come to them where they say that a consultant has charged them x dollars--some enormous amount--that they feel isn't justified. With the legal process, when lawyers have charged a fee that the client feels is not justified or appropriate, there's a process for assessing that.

Is there anything in the act or in the proposed regulations, which I suppose are difficult to comment on, that will deal with that situation?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman, unlike you.... Are you still a member of the law society, by the way?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Believe it or not, I am.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

So you pay your dues and you're familiar with that. I'm not aware, so perhaps you could help me as to whether or not—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Well, no, I was asking you a question.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Well, I don't know whether the law society actually stipulates what fees can be charged, but the immigration consultants regulatory body has indicated what are appropriate levels of fees.

So I think that's the way of dealing with this. They can indicate whether something constitutes an exorbitant fee.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I just throw it out here, because you're a member of Parliament and you get the same comments, and as you know, constituents tell us they were ripped off by some consultant. So the question is, how should that be dealt with?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes. I think in those cases--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

And it may be appropriate that, when regulations are being prepared, this be considered. I don't know whether it should be an amendment or should be in the regulations. I'm just telling you that when we have a group of people--lawyers--who suggested that their fees are outrageous, there's a process for dealing with that. That's all I'm saying.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Well, I think somebody would file a complaint and there would be a disciplinary review and sanctions imposed if necessary in such a case.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Minister, you said you were skeptical that the industry has the capacity to support a statutory body. What is the size of the consultancy business in Canada?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

There are about 1,600 registered members of CSIC, and that compares to, I suspect—