Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I understand that this is normal procedure. When Citizenship and Immigration Canada told you that the funding would cease, did you receive formal notice saying so?

They told us a little earlier that they wanted to limit the burden associated with the transition imposed on agencies providing services. Perhaps they will at least be open and let you have your equipment so that you can continue to operate. Did they give you a formal notice indicating that they wanted to recuperate the equipment at that point?

[Marion Newrick]

It was only a sentence in a stamped form letter. So we got the form letter in December, which was a stamped signature, and that was just one of the generic sentences that was included. I can certainly get you a copy of that letter.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Yes, that would be appreciated. You can give it to the clerk.

So it was part of the letter telling you that your funding would not be renewed. It wasn't in the original form you made the request in.

[Marion Newrick]

It was in the letter that we received in December, yes.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Ms. Woodbeck, what does it mean for your agency?

[Cathy Woodbeck]

We are looking at about a 15% cut from our budget of past years. It's about a 30% cut from what we had proposed to expand across northwestern Ontario. There are communities that have no service whatsoever, and we had proposed to do some video conferencing, teleconferencing, or at least have toll-free access to some of the communities, which we now can't do. So it was less than what we had last year. We had a teleconference of northern agencies just recently and looked at the cuts. They were anywhere from 5% to about 25%, and in a small agency a cut of 25% is going to have a huge impact.

For our agency, it means that one program will disappear completely, so one staff member will be gone, and two others who work part time in outreach and promotion. We really don't have anyone in a full-time capacity. There are not a lot of staff. They're mostly half-time and part-time to about seven full-time equivalent. When a program goes, then a part-time staff goes. They're often folks who have one or two other jobs and are trying to make ends meet, so it's particularly difficult. We have former newcomers, who are now Canadian citizens, working in our agency. It's particularly difficult to have to lay someone off who was working part time with you in these programs.

So we will have, I believe, three staff positions that we won't be able to continue, one entire program gone, and approximately a 15% cut to our budget. We'll have to fund that somehow through fundraising or whatever, which is also difficult in a smaller community where you have less to draw on, as far as fundraising. There are not a lot of foundations and other funding sources to pick up the slack.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Ms. Newrick, especially with your agencies incurring that debt, have you thought of doing a collective lawsuit? Your agency and other agencies signed leases based on a commitment from CIC that they would provide funding. That's why you moved into a new site, or the Afghan organization incurred debt, and now you can't get out of the lease. That's technically the government's responsibility, so have you thought of trying to take some kind of legal action? It's not fair for a small agency to be saddled with a debt of that size. I've heard that many other agencies are experiencing the same thing.

The absurd thing is that last year or the year before, they provided funding to buy new equipment and find new sites. The agencies were encouraged to expand. They got the funding, and now--bang--it's gone. In my mind, that's really poor planning.

Putting aside all the politics, have you considered legal action of any kind?

[Marion Newrick]

We were actually approached by a lawyer from an administrative law firm. They feel that we have a very strong case. We're going to meet with them next week just to get some information. We have made no decisions at this point, and it hasn't gone to our boards yet, but they want to provide us with the options.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

How closely are you working with OCASI to map out...? I imagine you would deal with the GTA or city of Toronto ones. I've seen Peel, Guelph, and Thunder Bay on the list--all across Ontario. How involved is OCASI in trying to assist?

[Marion Newrick]

OCASI called a meeting in January, and mostly the Toronto-area agencies met. They're doing as much as they can behind the scenes and writing to the minister. It was very hard for them to get any information. They requested certain information that has not yet been provided, such as the assessment tool that was used. I don't have that at my fingertips, but I can forward it to you.

This is bigger than OCASI, because there are many programs and services that are not OCASI members, such as school boards, hospitals, that are being cut. So I think something bigger needs to be done. It's not just the OCASI-based agencies; it impacts on the greater community as well.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

You estimated that about 1,000 workers are being eliminated, that their jobs are being eliminated, and the fact is that there is no severance package or transition plan. In a small agency, certainly, once you shut down, you don't even have funding to pay the debts, never mind the packages.

Has anyone collectively figured out how much that would require in order to deal with it? Is that being calculated? I imagine that CIC would have that information, I suppose....

[Marion Newrick]

I think at this point we just don't know. There hasn't been time to even begin to address that, because there are so many things we're trying to deal with at the same time. CIC has made it clear that they are not responsible for any wind-down costs and they are not going to help us with any wind-down costs. That's the message that came to us: we're the employer, we're the ones who hold the leases, and it's our responsibility.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I see. So they're washing their hands of it--

[Marion Newrick]

Yes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

--including the clients.

[Diane Walter]

I just need to say that agencies have been scrambling in the last month or so to get their charges, just to get some sense of what...of how to go forward. You talk about a lawsuit. We were approached by a lawyer, but we're really still sort of shell-shocked by this decision because there's absolutely no rationale for their decision. So we're still trying to get our charges....

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Yes.

Some of the administrators, the CIC staff, said, well, they should know it's coming, because it's merit based, some agencies have been warned, they know that some are not performing well, and they would have received information.

That's the sort of the answer we've been provided. I don't think that is correct. Could you describe what happened?

[Diane Walter]

Marion can probably speak more eloquently to this, as she is the ED of the agency, but I know that most agencies exceeded their targets. I know that our agency in particular exceeded our target, and other agencies that were--

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

You mean targets for numbers you've served.

[Diane Walter]

Yes, absolutely.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I asked this question today to the staff: what is the total number of people being impacted? Because you do submit the target numbers, right? So it's clear that they do have that number; it's just that they won't provide it to us.

[Diane Walter]

That data is collected. It's very onerous. They're very micro-management in their approach....

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

They have that data.

[Diane Walter]

They have that data. They can churn it out.