Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 1st, 2011

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So how many certificates are we actually issuing?

[David Manicom]

I believe the provinces issue about 22,000.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Okay.

It's fair to say the number we're actually issuing is increasing. You made reference to sixfold in the last five to six years. As more and more provinces seem to be realizing the benefits of the program, is it fair to say that we will continue to see significant increases in that program over the next few years?

[David Manicom]

At the present time the policy of the federal government is not to further increase the scale of the provincial nominee unless or until such time as there is an overall expansion in immigration levels, in order to maintain space for the federal skilled worker program.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Does the federal government then have caps? For example, the Province of Manitoba is only allowed to have x number of certificates or x number of people coming through the program.

[David Manicom]

We have an allocation process with the provinces.

Just to give a precise figure, the nomination target for 2012, next year, is 20,665, so I was right on the order of scale of 22,000, but not precise, and I believe that's the same target we had for 2011. Provinces, among themselves, can switch their allocations about, but we do have a province-by-province allocation target—

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I only have five minutes.

How is that actually determined? When you say provinces kind of negotiate amongst themselves, how is it determined? How many certificates would the Province of Manitoba give out last year, next year? Do they sit down with other ministers to determine that? How is it determined which province gets how many?

[David Manicom]

At the time in which we began to develop strategies to manage growth in the program, provincial nominee programs were already existing and were of a general size. The allocation formula was initially responsive to the existing size of provincial nominee programs. There have been small adjustments in the interim as some provinces did not wish to use the entire space available.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Is it safe to say that the demand for the program had no problem in terms of the supply, that the government was prepared to give the number of certificates? But now, because of the increased demand coming from the provinces—and we're anticipating that the increase will continue—there's going to be more pressure on Ottawa to start saying, “Okay, Province X, this is all you're going to get.” And it's going to be Ottawa making that determination. Is that a fair assessment?

[David Manicom]

Unless there's reallocation amongst the provinces, yes, generally.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Could you provide to the committee an actual breakdown of the number of people coming through the program and the number of certificates issued, by province? It would be very beneficial, I believe, to the committee.

[David Manicom]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Is the answer to that yes? You could send it to the clerk, please.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you.

The other issue is in regard to your mention that if someone is issued a certificate.... Immigration offices abroad are concerned about health and security. Generally speaking, if people pass the health test and get the security, they're coming to Canada. Usually it's within that 14-month time period.

The issue is this. If provinces say they're comfortable that a person has the finances to be able to make the trip and so forth, is immigration concerned about that at all then? That is if the province is prepared to say that.

[David Manicom]

It's a federal regulatory requirement that the officer be satisfied that the individual can successfully economically establish. In the overwhelming majority of cases the federal visa officer agrees, as indicated by the 97% approval rates—so there's a 3% refusal rate, which includes refusals on health and security. There are exceptional cases where the two levels of government differ in their view, and ultimately the federal government will make the final decision, in consultation with the province.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Manicom.

Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks to our guests for being here today.

In the nursery rhyme it was said about a little girl that “...when she was good, she was very, very good, and when she was bad, she was horrid”. For this program, it seems that when it's good, it's very, very good, and when it's bad, it's really not so bad, but it needs some tweaking.

In your excellent report, Mr. Manicom, you have referred to problems, especially in Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, that some of the motives for the program weren't being followed. Passive investment was the priority rather than the priorities named in the program. Do we have any regulatory response to that, or is this something that will come as a result of the report you discussed?

[David Manicom]

I think it's a combination of both regulatory authorities—bilateral agreements with the provinces, which also lay out certain conditions that need to be met, such as that a provincial nominee has to be issued a certificate consistent with the bilateral agreement between the federal government and the province—and management issues arising out of the report. Normally when it appears that a program or members of a provincial nominee program may not be consistent with federal regulation—for example, with regard to passive investment—usually there is a discussion process between the federal government and the province. When, in the end, we have to conclude that participants in the program are not compliant with a federal regulation that prohibits passive investment through the provincial nominee program—because there is a federal investor program that also does financial allocations to the provinces and we kind of want to prevent dilution of that program—then ultimately the federal government will not be able to approve the cases, because it's a regulatory requirement.

Of course, first, as we see programs emerge, we talk to the provinces and we work together to see if we can resolve apparent discrepancies. If not, the immigration act has to apply.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

One would hope there would be some consistency and a minimization of negotiations over every application, especially given the large growth we're seeing. Are we seeing some standardization that makes the whole system more fluid and streamlined so that these things don't have to be revisited time after time?

[David Manicom]

Yes. My previous position was immigration program manager in New Delhi, so I have some familiarity with the actual operational front line.

The percentage of cases where you have disagreements and a back-and-forth with the province is really quite small. It's a small percentage of cases.

It's not so much making all the provincial nominee programs the same; of course, we don't want to do that. What we work hard with the provinces on is ensuring that their criteria are transparent, that they're well known to our officers, and that those criteria are consistent with the regulations. The designed provincial nominee programs are supposed to meet individually specific provincial needs, so it's natural that the programs differ. That's okay as long as they meet the fundamental framework.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

There have been major increases over the past six years. Today we have 36,000. This year the figure will be 40,000. What does this mean for the future of that program? It seems to me that this is one of our government's great successes. Do you think that this will continue to be beneficial for our country?

[David Manicom]

I am absolutely certain that the program will continue to be beneficial for the entire country. The distribution of immigration throughout the country is obvious in the figures. Last year, we set an admissions record for the Provincial Nominee Program. We are going to break that record this year, and this year's record will almost certainly be broken next year, based on the trends we observe.

However as I already mentioned, the federal government is concerned with keeping the necessary room for a broad economic program for skilled workers. Within current levels, there are the necessary exchanges. We are going to work with the provinces for the benefit of Canada's economic programs.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You've got a couple of minutes remaining.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

If we can implement the changes proposed in your report, what are the limits to that growth, since that program is truly a very good one and the provinces benefit from it individually?

[David Manicom]

It does indeed depend on the total future levels of immigration. Of course there are limits to growth for all of our programs. Canada is in a good position. Indeed, we have pleasant choices to make since several programs have been successful. It is clear that the Provincial Nominee Program is a success but it is also clear according to the most recent reports that there are more people being chosen in the context of the federal program also. That program is also a great success. Choosing between the two is thus a positive choice for Canada, but choices have to be made in the context of current levels. If we increase one category, there has to be a decrease in another.