Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 26th, 2012

[Michael MacDonald]

I would take it with Canada and some of its key allies.

The networks, as I said, move, and ebb and flow. So the networks are very nimble. The facilitators fly around the globe.

What happens is that the networks use source and transit countries. The migrants will “make a deal” with a smuggler from a source country, they will leave that source country, and they may stage in another country right around the globe.

That has forced us to have a prevention strategy that moves our efforts, targeted around the globe, utilizing, for example, our existing relationships with others, utilizing our diplomatic missions abroad so we have a base from which to operate. We're trying to maximize Canada's limited resources around the globe.

International cooperation in capacity-building is a strong part of the prevention efforts, so—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you so much for that, a perfect ending.

Oh, I'm sorry. You actually have two more minutes. I was looking at the clock as five minutes.

Go for it.

[Michael MacDonald]

Thank you.

International cooperation and capacity-building is the main part of the prevention strategy. Canada has invested money in helping countries build their capacity, their law enforcement capacity, their immigration capacity overseas, where those networks operate—oftentimes not just the source, but in the transit countries. That is key.

There's also investigation and prosecution of smugglers. Another part of the strategy is to aggressively investigate, invest in the investigations overseas through the liaison arrangements, and then move to prosecution of those who enter into smuggling, and even the crew members.

Lastly, quite frankly, is deterring the human smuggling ventures.

Those three pillars of our strategy are also reflected in the overall pillars of the human smuggling portions of this bill.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

In my last 40 seconds, could I ask you if, when a mass smuggling event comes in and people are detained, in your opinion that would be in the best interests of Canadian safety and the Canadian public?

[Michael MacDonald]

Not only is it in the best interest, it's also required, because border authorities first have to determine identity upon arrival, and then they have to determine admissibility.

So there are legal requirements to be undertaken as well.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You actually have 30 seconds left.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Oh.

[A voice]

Do I have anything else to add...?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Michael MacDonald]

No, I'm fine.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I think we're good to go. I'll catch up with all the extra time you gave others.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Okay. Thank you very much. That was very, very kind of you.

Actually, I'm the next speaker. I have seven minutes—

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

And 30 seconds.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

—and I'll make sure that I stick to the clock very, very closely.

Minister, as you know, clause 19 of the bill grants you the power to revoke a refugee's permanent resident status. The reasons for which the refugee sought asylum may change in their home country, and I can imagine from reading this that it will give people a lot of concern and instability.

Are you aware that this could throw into question the permanent residency of thousands of people in Canada? And if that was not the intent of the clause, will you be amending the bill to remove this additional power?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Let me be clear: As I said at my last appearance before this committee, it is not our intention has never been our intention to put into doubt the permanent residency of bona fide refugees in Canada if, for example, there's a change of country conditions.

Just to be clear, the reason for the amendment was to streamline what is currently a two-step process for cessation of protected person status and revocation of permanent residency. If, for example, someone clearly has demonstrated after the fact that they obtained their refugee status illegitimately, or fraudulently, we do want to reserve the right, in some limited number of cases, to go back and say, “Sorry, we've since found out that you fooled the system. We're not going to let you profit from it.”

But we clearly do not want to throw into question the permanent residency of bona fide, good-faith refugees. That is why I certainly would be open to amendments to this section of the bill—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

—that would clarify that if there is, for example, a change of country conditions that's not the result of anything the refugee did, they would not be at jeopardy of losing their PR.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you, Minister. I hope you will indulge me with my next question.

Recently you made an announcement about returning all skilled worker applications received before 2008 in order to eliminate the application backlog. But it's not fair to simply press the delete button on these potential new Canadians, when your government and the previous one helped create these backlogs in the first place. How is this going to build trust in Canada's immigration system if the government of the day—and it could be any government, not just yours—can simply decide at any time to send back the applications of people who played by the rules and have been waiting for years and have changed and built their lives around that expectation?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

We would suggest that people not build their lives around an expectation: No foreign national has a right to immigrate to Canada. We invite people here; it's a privilege to come to Canada. We don't believe there should be any expectation of a guarantee of immigration by any foreign national to Canada, and we believe it's important to have an immigration system that serves the country's interests. These reforms will allow us to do so by, within 18 months, getting to a real-time immigration system that admits people within months of their application, rather than years, if they are qualified.

I would finally say that if there were anything injurious to Canada's international reputation in our immigration system, it was the seven- and eight-year wait times, which meant a lot of the brightest young prospective immigrants wouldn't even consider coming to Canada. Now they will be able to do so.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you, Minister. I'm sure we will continue to debate this one over the weeks to come. At the same time as we're trying to move things more toward real time and becoming more efficient, there's been an announcement that all of these immigration centres—19 regional immigration centres—are going to be shut down. I can imagine that is certainly going to have an impact on servicing.

Getting back to the legislation, which I know you would like me to return to....

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I would just like to remind everyone that we're here for Bill C-31, and I think this may be a point of order because you're talking about something completely out of the context of this bill and the purposes of this committee meeting.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

When the health care situation was raised, I thought it gave me an opening, but thank you very much.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay, and as you're also sitting as the chair at this point in time, I don't know whether you can rule on that point of order yourself.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!