Evidence of meeting #36 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was detention.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Herbert Grubel  Senior Fellow, Fraser Institute, As an Individual
Janet Cleveland  Psychologist and Researcher, Transcultural Research and Intervention Team, Division of Social and Cultural Psychiatry, McGill University
Cécile Rousseau  Professor of Psychiatry and Researcher, Transcultural Research and Intervention Team, Division of Social and Cultural Psychiatry, McGill University
Rivka Augenfeld  Spokesperson, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
Richard Goldman  Spokesperson, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
Dan Bohbot  President, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Let me echo what Ms. Sitsabaiesan said. Everyone in this room cares about the kind of people you're talking about. I think we may be misled if we ask the wrong question. Does anyone in the room want to see someone detained without reason? No one wants to see that.

I think we have to ask the right question. We're answerable as a government to 34 million Canadians. They expect us to maintain, as it's said classically in the Constitution, the peace, order, and good government of the country.

There are provisions in this bill to minimize the unfairness. For instance, anyone can apply to the public safety minister for release if circumstances warrant.

By the way, the number one concern in the bill is stated as in the best interests of the child. Those things prevail in Bill C-31, although I think they've been—

12:55 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Mr. Weston, I do apologize, but we are at one o'clock and ready to move on to our next set of witnesses.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Don't we move beyond because of the late start?

12:55 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

No, because we have the next set of witnesses scheduled to come. That's why we got going when we did.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Okay. Do I have time then to finish? I was just going to say in answer to that, my last question to—

12:55 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

If you could just finish your sentence that would be great.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

With regard to the economics of trying to preserve a refugee system, Professor Grubel, what would you say to those of us who compassionately want the refugee system to prevail, so we can be known as the most compassionate country in the world? What do we have to do to keep it alive?

12:55 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses. That's where we're going to stop for about a four-minute break and then we'll be back.

1 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

We're ready to start. We have two witnesses before us, and I'm going to call on Rivka first.

1 p.m.

Rivka Augenfeld Spokesperson, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes

Good afternoon.

I'll do my presentation in French, and my colleague will speak in English.

First, on behalf of the Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes, we thank you for inviting us to speak to you.

The Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes is an umbrella group of 142 community organizations assisting refugees and immigrants across Quebec. Founded in 1979, our organization's mission is that of defending the rights of newly arrived persons and families, regardless of their immigration status.

It is also important to tell you that our organizations help refugees across Quebec, under the agreement sponsored by the state, which the rest of Canada calls the Government-Assisted Refugee Program. These people are set up all over Quebec, with contracts from the Quebec ministère de l’Immigration et des Communautés culturelles.

Through our experience, we have developed considerable expertise on the question of recourses for refused refugees. We witness first-hand, day after day, the consequences of human errors in the refugee determination process and the extreme challenges of trying to have such errors corrected. We presented a brief on this matter to this committee in 2007.

Today, we are going to focus on this aspect of the provisions of Bill C-31.

My colleague, Richard Goldman, will continue the presentation.

May 2nd, 2012 / 1:10 p.m.

Richard Goldman Spokesperson, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes

Thank you, Rivka.

Although the Table de concertation adds its voice to stakeholders such as the Canadian Council for Refugees, which feels that Bill C-31 is so flawed as to require replacement with more balanced legislation, in order to be constructive we will be focusing on the Refugee Appeal Division and post-claim recourses, and providing our observations and recommendations on that.

First of all, the importance of a Refugee Appeal Division has long been recognized. When Parliament adopted the IRPA in 2001, it contained a Refugee Appeal Division, which was supposed to be accessible to all. In Bill C-11, this was adopted. Of course the IRPA RAD was never implemented. It's also important to bear in mind that a number of international human rights agencies have pointed out the pertinence of a Refugee Appeal Division. Quoting from page 2 of our brief:

UNHCR considers an appeal procedure to be a fundamental, necessary part of any refugee status determination process. It allows errors to be corrected, and can also help to ensure consistency in decision-making. Canada, Italy, and Portugal are the only industrialized countries which do not allow rejected asylum seekers the possibility to have first-instance decisions reviewed on points of fact as well as points of law. In the past, a measure of safeguard was provided by the fact that determinations could be made by a two-member panel, with the benefit of the doubt going to the applicant in case of a split decision. With the implementation of IRPA on June 28th, 2002, this important safeguard will be lost.

Likewise, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has stated:

Given that even the best decision-makers may err in passing judgment, and given the potential risk to life which may result from such an error, an appeal on the merits of a negative determination constitutes a necessary element of international protection.

I'm going to look now at the restrictions on the RAD under Bill C-31. There are four major restrictions, which I'll look at in turn.

First of all, let's consider asylum seekers from designated countries of origin. These claimants will have super-fast-tracked hearings to be held as soon as 30 days after their arrival. This will make it difficult or impossible for them to prepare their case adequately, get documentary proof of persecution, obtain identity documents, or even to secure legal counsel, not to mention overcoming the trauma of rape, sexual assault, or whatever else they may have been through. So the risks of human error in this situation are extremely high.

Second, there is the matter of arriving in Canada as part of an irregular arrival. This has no relation whatever to the merits of a refugee claim. In fact, from certain countries the only way to get out is with false documents. Passport offices may not be functioning or a genuine refugee may not get a passport. If two or more such persons arrive together, if any group arrives together with the assistance of a smuggler, they can be designated an “irregular arrival”. “Group” is not defined in the act, so it could be as few as two people, as far as we can tell. There's no logical basis for a presumption that a group of such claimants coming from, say, Iran, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, or Somalia are making abusive claims that do not merit a right of appeal.

Third, there are persons who have claimed asylum at the Canada-U.S. border already, under the U.S.-Canada Safe Third Country Agreement. Very few refugees can enter at the border and make an asylum claim. There are a few exceptions. The main exception that remains today is to have a family member in Canada. If somebody manages to enter at the border and claims asylum, he will also be subject to a restriction on his right of appeal. We really don't understand why this should be the case. As a matter of fact, in a briefing call that was held right after the introduction of Bill C-31, it was explained to us that the worst that could happen to these people is that they'd be returned to the States. Actually, that's an error. As of the expiry of the reciprocal agreement in October 2009, it's not possible to return them to the States. They would be sent directly to their country of alleged persecution, with no right of appeal. So this seems to be based entirely on an error.

With the fourth exception, “manifestly unfounded or no credible basis” claims, the above three exceptions kick in even before the claimant has been heard by the IRB.

This fourth exception only kicks in at the IRB itself. What can happen is a person who in principle has a right to appeal can have their hearing, and if the decision-maker says that the claim is manifestly unfounded or has no credible basis, they will lose their right to appeal. This strikes us as extremely perverse, because the decision-maker in effect can insulate himself or herself from review. In other words, if they make a small mistake and refuse a well-founded claim, it can go on appeal. If they make a big mistake and say that a well-founded claim is manifestly unfounded, it can't be reviewed.

It seems to us that all of these exceptions therefore violate basic principles of fairness and in some cases even logic.

It's also important to keep in mind that these same four categories will not have effective access to the Federal Court, because although it's possible for them to apply to the Federal Court, they will no longer benefit from a stay of removal. Therefore, they can be removed on day 31 or 61 and have no appeal, no access to the Federal Court in practical terms.

Other post-claim recourses are also being eliminated. The so-called pre-removal risk assessment, or PRA, wasn't a very good procedure, but this will be practically eliminated, because people will not have access for 12 months after refusal. The government has said it wants to remove people far faster than that, so practically speaking the PRA will be out the window.

Final recourse that is also effectively being eliminated is the humanitarian and compassionate recourse. This does not overlap with the refugee claim. It takes into account other things, such as gender-based discrimination, or other types of discrimination that do not rise to the level of persecution. It can also take into account best interests of the child, and so on. An exception is created in the law for humanitarian applications based on best interests of the child and medical considerations. However, no stay of removal is being provided for those cases. They can still be removed on day 31 or day 61. Consequently, as a result of these different exceptions to the RAD, there is the very unrealistic 15-day timeline for filing at the RAD. We can talk about that more.

This, along with the gutting of the other post-claims recourses, means that we may finally have a Refugee Appeal Division in Canada, and yet the majority of refused claimants will have absolutely no avenue to have their refusal reviewed.

Our recommendations are as follows. First of all, Bill C-31 should be withdrawn and replaced with fair and balanced legislation. On the specific topic of the Refugee Appeal Division, all claimants should have access to the RAD. The corresponding regulations should allow 45 days for filing and perfection of appeals to the RAD. The bar on filing of humanitarian and compassionate applications while a refugee claim is pending and for 12 months following a refusal should be removed. Humanitarian and compassionate applicants should benefit from an automatic stay of removal until such time as their humanitarian and compassionate applications are ruled upon.

Thank you.

1:10 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Thank you very much.

We do have another set of witnesses, and they're on the beautiful screens in front of you.

Welcome, Mr. Bohbot and Ms. Tutunjian. I apologize for the pronunciation. You have ten minutes between you.

1:10 p.m.

Dan Bohbot President, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Thank you.

The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration speaks at great length on the independence of the administrative tribunal, the Immigration and Refugee Board, or IRB, and how the decision-makers will make independent and impartial decisions. However, Bill C-31 raises doubts about that.

For instance, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration justifies his discretionary power to decide which countries are designated countries of origin by saying that he must be able to respond quickly to avoid a wave of fraudulent refugee claimants. He justifies this measure by saying that he wants to let Hungarians, for example, come to Canada without a visa and avoid having people make claims for refugee protection in Canada.

So it's the minister himself who decides in advance what represents a wave of fraudulent claimants. So it isn't true that Bill C-31 gives the administrative tribunal full independence in the decision-making process. The minister himself said the opposite in his testimony before this committee.

As for people who will be considered part of an irregular arrival, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration justifies his discretionary power and detention for one year by the fact that Canada cannot let in people who have not obtained a visa before they arrive in the country. He continues to scare us with the idea that these people will not have identity documents, that their identity will have to be established before they can be released and that, lastly, people will not have recourse to automatic release as an alternative to detention. In fact, the current legislation justly sets out a detention review mechanism prior to release.

The minister went on in his testimony to explain that these people will pay smugglers to get to Canada and that the smugglers are dangerous criminals who endanger the lives of the passengers. Once again, the minister is trying to influence the fate of the refugee claimant through these punitive and discriminatory measures.

The minister is inconsistent when he explains that individuals who arrive irregularly need to be detained for security reasons for one year—

1:15 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Excuse me, Monsieur Bohbot. Could we just ask you to go a little slower? Our interpreters need to keep up with you.

Thank you.

1:15 p.m.

President, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Dan Bohbot

Very well, thank you. Okay, I'll continue.

On the other hand, these same people can be released immediately after their refugee claim is approved, in other words through an IRB hearing in 60 days. How can the administrative tribunal decision maker be more sure of the identity of these inmates than Immigration Canada is? It isn't realistic to think that the administrative tribunal will feel independent in light of these punitive measures.

The frequently asked questions page on the RCMP's website explains the difference between human trafficking and human smuggling:

Human trafficking involves the recruitment, transportation or harbouring of persons for the purpose of exploitation (typically in the sex industry or for forced labour).… Human smuggling is a form of illegal migration involving the organized transport of a person across an international border, usually in exchange for a sum of money and sometimes in dangerous conditions.

The minister never makes this distinction and his speech confuses the two concepts. It is very rare for refugees to be able to obtain a visa to come to Canada. Smugglers are too often the only way for refugees to leave their country and arrive here to make a refugee claim. These are real refugees from countries that do not respect human rights. These are people who have no choice because they are facing persecution.

Canada already has a tradition of human smuggling. The Loyalists fled New England to take refuge in Canada. The Underground Railroad mainly helped American slaves find freedom in Canada. Common law is the legal basis of our law in Canada. It is the result of centuries of tradition that led to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

Article 39. No freemen shall be taken, or imprisoned, or disseized, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any way harmed—nor will we go upon or send upon him—save by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.

Article 40. To none will we sell, to none deny or delay, right or justice.

These are passages from the Magna Carta, which dates from 1215 almost 1,000 years ago. The Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 provided protection against arbitrary arrest and detention. A person detained had the right to know the reasons for his arrest, to challenge the detention and to obtain release.

Now I come to section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

Section 10 makes this clear:

10: Everyone has the right, on arrest or detention: (a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor; (b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; (c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way ofhabeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.

These quotations come from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and we must be proud of them.

Bill C-31 goes contrary to these principles of fundamental justice. This bill is turning back the clock 1,000 years on our principles of justice.

For example, persons designated as part of an irregular arrival and 16 years of age or older must be detained. The detention is not reviewed for 12 months and they have no access to the RAD. If the person is accepted, they cannot ask for permanent residence for five years following the IRB decision, they get no refugee travel document and they have to report to an immigration officer.

Then, for designated countries of origin, the Refugee Protection Division, the RPD, fast-tracks applications. The people involved have no access to the RAD and they cannot get an automatic stay of removal when seeking a judicial review from the Federal Court. These provisions can also be applied retroactively. Asylum seekers are therefore not all treated equally by the legislation or the justice system.

In addition, budget cuts to the IRB announced in the federal budget will have the effect of no longer providing the failed claimant with a transcript of the evidence he gave before the negative decision. The—

1:20 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Mr. Bohbot, could you finish off your sentence, please?

1:20 p.m.

President, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Dan Bohbot

Yes. Thank you.

In other words, the AQAADI considers that the bill is, in its entirety—

1:20 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Mr. Bohbot, my apologies. I am a new chair. You actually have three more minutes.

1:20 p.m.

President, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Dan Bohbot

Thank you. I thought so.

So I was saying that, as a result of the budget cuts to the IRB, a failed claimant no longer has a right to a transcript of the evidence he gave before the negative decision. The IRB has announced that it will provide a CD recording of the hearing.

Even under the best conditions, how will a refugee be able to get access to a computer to listen to the recording and prepare an appeal and a written case in 15 days? How can the Refugee Appeal Division really hear a case in depth without having made themselves aware of the evidence?

The automatic loss of resident status after a cessation of refugee status violates Canada's international obligations.

In conclusion, the AQAADI feels that the bill is, in its entirety, contrary to the charter and contrary to this country's humanitarian traditions. This bill will not prevent thousands of people from coming here and staying here each year. This bill will encourage those facing detention to go into hiding, given the punitive, arbitrary and unjust provisions it contains. With this bill, Canada will more and more resemble the United States, with its huge illegal immigrant problem.

1:20 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Thank you very much.

Mr. Weston, you really do get to ask questions, and you have seven minutes.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome to our guests: Ms. Augenfeld, Mr. Goldman, Mr. Bohbot and Mr. Tutunjian.

Mr. Bohbot, I think you appeared before this committee about six months ago.

Viktor Frankl, a survivor of Auschwitz, said that rights not balanced by responsibilities are dangerous. Even in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, reasonable conditions may be applied to some rights.

Mr. Bohbot, we have a refugee system of which most Canadians are proud. Across the world, Canada is known as a compassionate country. We here at this committee are proud of it. But there is a burden that we cannot continue to bear. At the moment, processing one refugee file alone takes an average of 1,000 days. Yesterday, we were told that, in New Zealand, the figure is 45 days. If we continue to do things as we are, we will not be able to process the files of genuine refugees quickly. But that is what everyone would like.

Do you agree that we should change the system so that real refugees have an advantage?

1:25 p.m.

President, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Dan Bohbot

Mr. Weston, Bill C-11 has already been passed and it already changes the system that is designed to speed up hearings. Bill C-31 categorizes people even before they have made a claim for asylum. That is where the problem lies. The minister gives himself discretionary powers and sends the message to the panel that he himself can determine who is persona non grata.

In my opinion, this political influence on the panel's decision-making process is the crux of the problem. This is political interference in immigration matters and we should avoid it. We should trust the decision-makers and let them do their jobs.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

The last time you testified, you were very critical of our government. Personally, for this study, I would like everyone to show some openness. This is about refugees, not about the Conservative Party or some other party.

You and I both know that the minister's discretion will be exercised depending on certain criteria. This is not about absolute discretion. He may decide, for example, that some countries are now designated countries, but he must do it according to certain criteria, specifically the fact that—

the claimants have been abandoning their claims in the order of some 90% or they have been rejected. So this discretion about which we're talking is not absolute.

You're aware of that, Mr. Bohbot, right?

1:25 p.m.

President, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Dan Bohbot

In my view, Bill C-31 actually will give enormous discretionary power to the minister who, in my opinion, will go beyond transparency and justification in order to obtain the desired result.

Let us not forget that a large percentage of claims from European countries, such as the Roma from Hungary, were accepted before people started making speeches characterizing them in advance as bogus refugees. After the political speeches from the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, the acceptance rate at the board went down. There is a direct cause-and-effect link between the minister's speeches and the panel's acceptance rate. Now, if you want to give him even greater discretionary power, how can it be presumed in any way other than that the rate will go down even more as a result of the political rhetoric?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Let's get to the basic question.

The problem is that the processing of claims is taking over a thousand days. Furthermore, we're learning that the cost of processing claims that are withdrawn or abandoned is some $170 million a year to Canadians. We have to govern for 34 million people to whom we have a democratic accountability and responsibility. If we don't make changes to reduce the abuse of the system, then the system cannot continue and Canadians would be calling for its removal.

Do you agree that it has to be changed to accelerate the processing? What is the problem you see that can be fixed to achieve that goal?