Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2012

[Roland Brumberg]

From a German point of view, it's not excluded to put families in detention, but as our colleague from the commission said, as far as the EU return directive—which is important in this situation—is concerned, there has to be very strong scrutiny of the principle of proportionality, so you would put a family in detention in a very special case.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Does Germany determine which country is deemed to be a safe country?

[Roland Brumberg]

Germany determines it, and it's a decision of Parliament.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Does Germany have mandatory detention for irregular arrivals?

[Roland Brumberg]

No, detention in Germany is only a means to allow for deportation, and every case has to be assessed on whether there is justification for detention.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

In Germany, you keep families together as much as possible, right?

[Roland Brumberg]

Yes. This is one consequence of the EU return directive.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Do all refugees in Germany have some sort of appeal mechanism?

[Roland Brumberg]

Yes, we have a general system of administrative courts, and every decision can be appealed to the Federal Administrative Court.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Finally, in Germany, are both irregular and regular refugees treated equally in terms of appeal?

[Roland Brumberg]

We don't have a distinction between irregular and regular refugees.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Lamoureux.

Mr. Menegakis.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us today.

I want to thank the officials from the European Commission and from the Federal Government of Germany for joining us today.

We're in the midst of evaluating this new legislation, as you may very well know, which we believe is going to speed up our system. One of the things that is clogging our system, one of the elements, is that we are getting a large percentage of claimants—particularly from the European Union, I might add—who end up clogging the system. At some point throughout the processing of their claim, they end up abandoning their claim and returning to their home country.

I was wondering if I could get your opinion on that. First of all, are you seeing that same phenomenon in the EU? Second, in your opinion, would someone who is genuinely fleeing from persecution of some nature abandon a claim in a free and democratic country like Canada and return to the place where they're potentially in danger?

Perhaps we can start with our German officials and then go to the European Commission.

Mr. Brumberg?

[Christoph Ehrentraut]

I am also dealing with European asylum issues in Berlin.

It might happen, but we don't have any statistics. According to my experience, we don't have many cases where people just give up their application and return to their country of origin. It might happen, but I don't have any statistics about that.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Would somebody from the European Commission care to comment on that?

[Ioana Patrascu]

Again, we don't have statistics because member states do not have these statistics, so they don't communicate them to us—sorry.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay.

We've heard about populations in several countries that face discrimination. Is discrimination the same as persecution, in your opinion? Can you explain the difference?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Who are you addressing that to?

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm addressing it to both groups here with us today, so whoever would care to go first....

Perhaps we can start with you again, Mr. Brumberg, on the difference between discrimination and persecution.

[Roland Brumberg]

I'm sorry. I have to say that we are not in a position here to comment on that, as the other people who are at the table are....

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay. How about the European Commission? Would somebody care to weigh in on that?

[Ioana Patrascu]

This is a question that can only be answered at length, but I will try to be very short.

Discrimination does not always equal persecution; however, it can. Persecution must reach a certain degree of severity, so if it is not severe enough, we define it as a severe violation of basic human rights. I think it's the same in the UNHCR guidelines. We have the same approach as the UNHCR on the issue of discrimination as persecution or not.

I hope this replies to your question.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you. In part, it does.

We've heard from witnesses who are of the opinion that there is systematic persecution of the Roma in EU countries. Now, I can appreciate that this is a difficult question, but I'd like to hear your opinion on whether you feel there is systematic persecution of the Roma, not only in Hungary but in European countries.

Does somebody want to touch that issue?

[Roland Brumberg]

I'm sorry. Again, I have to say that we are not in a position to comment on that. We are prepared to answer questions on the legal systematics and not on the material application of law.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

How about the European Commission?