Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I think this was asked before, Mr. Menegakis.

[Angela Martini]

I think I've already tried to reply. It is not only a question of it being difficult, but also, as Ioana was saying, discrimination is a bit different from persecution. As a matter of fact, the Roma issue in Hungary is followed by other colleagues of ours. We cannot really pronounce on it ourselves on their behalf. It's a very distinct issue. For you, it might be related, but for us it's not so related.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay. Let me go on a little further, then.

I was really struck by the high percentage of refugees who come to the European Union by irregular means. Could you elaborate a little on the identification process you use to identify the refugees before you allow them into the EU and allow them around your families, communities, and cities? What identification processes do you use to identify those refugees prior to making a decision?

[Angela Martini]

Before taking a decision...these are asylum seekers and not recognized refugees.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?

[Angela Martini]

I think there is a bit of mixing up of different categories of people. You have to imagine that the majority of people in Europe arrive by boat or at the border to claim asylum. The moment they even say the word “fear”, “persecution”, or “asylum”, they have to be allowed into a procedure to have their claim examined. Most people do not have documents with them, so member states in general have specialized, trained officials who determine the origin of the person, their language, and so on.

It is for the member state to decide whether they are satisfied or not that the person is a genuine refugee. Then they grant a permit to stay, or they return the person, if possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Your time is up. I like you a lot, but not as much as Mr. Davies.

Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank His Excellency and every other presenter who is here. I think it's very courageous of all of you to give up this much time to face a committee across the great waters.

Just for the record, Canada does recognize members of the Roma community as convention refugees. In the 2011 country report we received the other day, 165 applicants from Hungary were accepted by the IRB, compared to 117 from North Korea. The numbers being withdrawn or abandoned in 2011 actually went from 95% previously right down to 55%. I just want to put that out there, because as Canadians we have recognized that they are refugees who are deserving of that designation.

We've also heard information regarding Roma and EU countries. His Excellency made it very clear that there are no asylum seekers from member states within the European Union.

We have also heard a lot about this free movement of people within the EU. Why do they have to travel on dangerous boats or by plane to come to Canada? Why can't they just go to a nearby country? The right of location within the EU is really limited. For example, you can move somewhere, but after three months you have to have a job. You stipulated that.

We also know and have heard reports that there's a high level of prejudice against Roma in EU countries, and they're finding it hard to find jobs. Plus the economy doesn't help. Mass deportation of Roma from France in 2010 was also another indication of the kind of persecution they face.

Why do EU countries refuse to accept that some Roma fleeing Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia could be refugees, when other countries such as Canada have officially ruled that numerous Roma are indeed convention refugees?

[Ioana Patrascu]

We cannot comment without knowing the particulars of cases. The decision to recognize refugee status or not depends on the personal circumstances of a person. Therefore, just based on general statements, we cannot know.

Furthermore, there are legal provisions concerning Roma who are EU citizens. They are EU citizens; therefore, they benefit from the regime of freedom of movement, and they are outside the scope of the EU asylum instruments. Therefore, we cannot pronounce ourselves further on this issue, in addition to what we have already said.

Thank you.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

To add further to the comments His Excellency made, you've made it very clear that within the EU, Roma cannot seek asylum because they come from member states that are part of the EU.

We often hear different arguments, but if Canada were to continue to accept Roma refugees, would that jeopardize the current Canada-EU trade agreement negotiations? What has the EU communicated to the Canadian government on this issue?

This question is to the European Commission or His Excellency.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I don't know whether these people know anything about trade.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I think His Excellency was getting ready to answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I think he probably doesn't want to talk about it.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Then he will tell me.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ask former President Sarkozy.

Go ahead, Mr. Brinkmann.

[Bernhard Brinkmann]

Thank you.

We are well aware of the fact that there are many Roma who come here to Canada to apply for asylum here. We are also aware of the fact that the majority abandon their request once it comes to appear before a committee and so on. The reasons for that are also well known. The Roma have a traditional nomadic lifestyle. Many of them have no permanent employment or revenues.

On the other hand, we have discussed this with representatives of the government here. When they come to Canada, they are accepted as asylum seekers and receive a cash payment from the day they are accepted as asylum seekers until their hearing or until the procedures come to an end, which can take several years.

In our view, there is a pull factor here, because, as you are aware, they come from their country of origin, but they can move freely in Europe. They can live and work in other countries. They can be there as long as they don't become a burden to the social system of one country for more than three months, where they can look for employment.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

[Bernhard Brinkmann]

The question was about—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

Do I have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No, you are through.

Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to all of you gathered here today. There's a history of friendship between our nations, which is I think epitomized by the gesture of Anja and Roland to have our two flags sitting in front of you, so danke schön for that.

My colleague, Ms. Sims, has referred to the ongoing trade negotiations. Of course, we would love to broaden the already strong ties between our two countries.

Your Excellency, you referred to the visa issue in the Czech Republic. One reason we are here today, of course, is because of the influx of unsubstantiated refugee claims from the Czech Republic, which led in July 2009 to that visa requirement. Of course, we are trying to deal with that refugee issue as we speak today.

My first question is directed to you, Anja, and perhaps to you, Your Excellency. Do I understand that the Roma are not completely barred from claiming asylum in a neighbouring European country and it's just that the restrictions or the rules are different if you come from a neighbouring European Union country?

[Anja Klabundt]

Yes, that's correct. You can't say that applicants who are Roma are generally not admitted as asylum seekers, so you have to check each case. If you check the circumstances of each case, it might be that even a Roma coming from another European country may be accepted as an asylum seeker.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Your Excellency, since you sit here in Ottawa with us, maybe I can direct this to you. Why do you think people would travel from Europe at so much greater cost and greater difficulty than going next door to a fellow European Union country?

[Bernhard Brinkmann]

Beats me. I can only guess.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Would you suggest perhaps that the social and health benefits provided to refugee claimants in Canada might be more generous than what they might experience in a neighbouring country in Europe?