Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 19th, 2012

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

So what firewall do we have that you know of?

[Robert Bell]

To a large extent, Canada is not collecting biometric data; they are collecting surveillance information. I don't know the answer to the question.

Do you know the answer to what we do with policies for surveillance information?

[Pierre Meunier]

No, I'm afraid not.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I think for me it goes to the next stage, because here we're pursuing the use of biometric data for visas, the three categories you talked about. So obviously we're looking for answers to those questions, and I'm hoping a different witness will be able to provide us with those answers, because they're very specific.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Don't look at me for answers. I'm just like you and learning what's going on.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I understand you provide the system, and you don't provide how the system is managed. So I'm sure your answer is going to be identical for the next one. You don't know how long the data will be kept and when the data will be destroyed. For example, is it only for identity verification, and as soon as identity has been verified the data will be expunged, or once the tourist leaves?

[Robert Bell]

Again, it is the government's policies that we would follow, and we would set it up. Our technology is flexible. For some implementations that we do for identity verification it's exactly as you've described. You verify the identity and the data is expunged.

In other cases, people say they want an entrance record and an exit record from the border, so that information is retained for a period of time to support investigations if there are incidents that are subsequent.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Let me just be clear. For example, I lived in India up to the age of ten--just so it's a real example.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You'd better hurry; you've got 15 seconds.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Okay.

So once I arrive and my biometrics are taken, I have no guarantee when they will be expunged.

[Robert Bell]

I think the policy should be publicized. Whatever the government policy is in other cases, it's always been publicized in terms of we will keep this data under these circumstances for this long, and I would expect that the Government of Canada would do exactly that.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I'm really looking forward to that policy.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to get right into what the government is proposing to do—we need to be very clear on this—which is to move towards biometrics in dealing with temporary visas. So that's visiting visas, working visas, and so forth. My understanding is that what they're talking about when they think of biometrics is the live picture and the fingerprints. Is that a fair comment, to the best of your knowledge?

[Robert Bell]

It's partly correct.

What they're doing, as I understand it, is they capture the live face image when you go to apply for a visa, they capture your fingerprints, and then they store the picture and they use the fingerprints as the biometric for matching.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Okay.

So in the future, because they're doing it in a couple of ways, anyone who's going to be receiving a visiting visa or a working visa or a student visa is physically going to have to go down to some form of a government agency in order to get that picture taken, in order for that picture to be effective. Was that a fair assessment? Because you couldn't just go to the old camera shop here and then say “Here's the picture I had taken”. You'd have to go to that government-sanctioned agency, correct?

[Robert Bell]

Since you have to go in person to give your fingerprints, it's very easy to also get your face image captured at the same time. So you will have to go to a specific location.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Right.

Today you're not required to go to an embassy or an immigration office. You can do it via courier, for example, and that's quite often done. So with this change in policy, in order to be effective for biometrics, we need to be clear that they will have to go to a government agency of sorts, ideally the embassy or a consular office, to implement an effective biometric program. Is that correct?

[Robert Bell]

I believe that's the case. Some countries, though, are establishing relationships with other countries. I believe the five countries I mentioned—the U.K., U.S., Australia, New Zealand, and Canada—are cooperating and will have similar standards, so it may be possible for you to go to one of those other locations as well. That will give you some diversity, some places where if Canada's not represented, perhaps the U.S. is.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

At the very least, in terms of when you think of biometrics, it has to maintain the live picture and the fingerprints?

[Robert Bell]

Yes.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

What about the idea of the iris scan? Do you see that being implemented shortly? Is that something that's about five years or two years away? Has there been any discussion?

[Robert Bell]

As I understand it, there is a provision to have iris as an alternative biometric on your passport. For the e-passport, the only mandatory biometric is face. So most countries are just putting the face image on the chip. The European countries are putting fingerprints. I know of no countries that are planning on putting iris on at this time.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Does Canada even have the capacity to be able to do iris scans? When you think of the offices abroad, they would all have to have proper capital equipment. Is that something that's even...?

[Robert Bell]

It would be possible, and it's not that expensive. If you're going there, we make a product that captures face, fingerprints, and iris. So it's not impossible.