Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 31st, 2012

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

—and that would definitely be taken into consideration and weigh differently on the sentencing.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Sorry, Ms. Rosenfeldt, we have to move on.

Mr. Holder, welcome to the committee.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank our guests as well for attending today.

I'm in this curious place where I'm not sure whether I would rather respond to some of the comments from members opposite which, quite frankly and with respect, seem quite ludicrous, or get some very legitimate testimony from you as well. I'll try to mix the two.

From my perspective this works from a fairly simple premise: people who are convicted of committing serious crimes are bad, and innocent victims of crime are good. I think there's a basic premise of right and wrong here that doesn't seem to come across around the whole table, and I just don't know why, but the clear divide on this can't be more obvious.

I think there's a really easy answer, from what I've heard in your testimony so far.

If people don't want to be deported, don't commit the crime. Don't traffic in drugs. Don't steal. Don't use firearms. Don't rob. Don't rape. Don't kidnap. Don't assault. Don't harass. Don't utter threats. Don't murder. Don't break our laws. That's what I've heard you say so far, and that's what I heard from the president of the Canadian Police Association earlier as well. That's pretty basic stuff. This is not complicated.

It strikes me again that there's another premise—and I thought I heard this from you, Ms. Rosenfeldt—that people who come to this country with the long-term intention to stay are guests of our country. Living in Canada is a right, it's not a privilege, and I think you have to earn that right every day, and I certainly got that from your comments.

Ms. Rosenfeldt, can I say this? You lost a child who was 16, and if you don't mind, you've been very public about it, you and your husband created Victims of Violence as a way to probably, in some ways, provide your own support and bring meaning to your son's death at the hands of Clifford Olson. While I would like to say I can't relate to it, having lost a 14-year-old boy I can relate to it. I extend to you my heartfelt sympathy and my thanks to you and your husband for what you've built and what you've tried to do to try to make a difference in this country. I honour you. I know people around this whole room honour you for the work you've done

Here are my thoughts on a couple of things.

You made the comment that “all Canadians have a right to live in safe communities”, and I was very touched by that. You also made the comment that “we're talking about convicted foreign criminals. We're not talking about people who are charged with an offence, or who haven't gone to trial”.

Could you elaborate on that for us, please?

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

As I said, what we are talking about is criminals, whether they're Canadian criminals or foreign criminals, people coming into Canada from other countries. I believe that we have a very, very good judicial system in Canada, but there are a number of wrongs. There are a number of flaws which we have taken part in trying to correct; however, it's a very giving and fair judicial system.

What I'm talking about is people who come into our country and break our laws, who have gone through the fair judicial process with the right to appeal. I think we have to make an informed and firm decision on what Canada expects from people who come into our country and eventually break our laws. As I said in my presentation, I think it should be loud and clear that the rules of engagement are changing in Canada, and that we are not going to put up with it.

Something else that I would like to add is that all we're talking about is shortening the length of the appeals process for people who are convicted. Whether you grow six marijuana plants or whatever, that makes no never mind to victims of crime. If you are breaking the law, then you should not be in our country.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you for that.

I heard Mr. Neve earlier and some members opposite talk about the concern about process, but we do have a process, it's called the court of law—

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

Yes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

—and there is an appeal that goes with that as well. Quite frankly, the abuses that happen are unimaginable when we think about them.

I heard our friend opposite talk earlier about how the problem seemed to be like a drop in the ocean. I don't know what I want to say to Mr. Baylis' family about a drop in the ocean. That's just not it.

Mr. Bissett, you said earlier that immigration is the most important issue of our time. Why do you feel so strongly about that?

[James Bissett]

I feel strongly about that because from 1985 on there's been a fairly mass migration movement, perhaps the biggest in history, that's taken place from countries in the developing world into the industrialized world of western Europe and North America. For the most part, that's been an irregular movement and, in particular in the case of Europe, an unwanted one.

It took place first in the 1960s. It began in the 1960s with guest workers coming into European countries on a temporary basis, but none of them ever went home, and that has continued with asylum seekers.

I think last year some 500,000 asylum seekers came into western Europe and North America. These are people on the move, and you can't blame them. But if the movement is irregular, and these people are not welcomed, and they're not in any way managed, and they're not helped in any way, they undermine the confidence of the source countries.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Mr. Bissett, if I could ask you, we heard from Mr. Stamatakis, who said that foreign criminals, and frankly, criminals period, but foreign criminals, particularly, take up capacity in the system which delays opportunities for legitimate foreigners who come to this country and want to make a better life. We honour those people, and that's the greatest majority.

Have you ever looked at the economic cost at the taxpayers' expense of keeping these foreign criminals in this never-ending cycle of appeals?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Unless there's an answer in seconds, that's....

[James Bissett]

No, I haven't, but I have done some cost benefit analysis on other areas, our asylum seeker system, for example. I would estimate it costs the Canadian taxpayers $2 billion to $3 billion a year.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Madam Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here today.

Obviously we can never do enough to prevent crime. We all agree on the importance of measures to both prevent and tackle crime. Equally important is the need to consider and promote victims' rights, which are paramount. We must never lose sight of the fact that victims have rights. Our government must equip itself with the tools to support them after the crime and to give them solutions that enable them to rebuild their lives.

Mr. Bissett, you lamented the lack of resources preventing immigration officers from interviewing immigrants who come here. Do you see the new measures to centralize application processing in Ottawa, on the basis of document and form analysis, as an appropriate solution?

[James Bissett]

No, I don't think it is.

Personally I think that any immigrant coming to Canada should clearly be interviewed by experienced Canadian visa officers before they get here. At one time all immigrants were interviewed abroad. Not only were their documents checked and the reliability of their claims to be an experienced carpenter or engineer or whatever assessed, but they were given counselling before they came here. They were given good advice about where to go in Canada to get a job. They were told about things to avoid upon arrival. They were much better prepared to come as a result of that interview. If during the interview the officer felt that the person couldn't meet the selection criteria but was someone who clearly showed initiative at the interview and displayed self-reliance, the officer had the discretion to let the person in.

The point of the selection system was to select people who could become established on their own within a year without government assistance. That prevailed. The immigrants who came prior to 1990 have done extremely well. The record of those who have come since then, because they're not being seen, they're not being interviewed, and their documents aren't being checked, has been much less favourable.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Sitsabaiesan, you have less than three minutes.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

Thank you both for being here.

Ms. Rosenfeldt, I myself have been a victim of a serious crime and can understand and relate to you and many members of your organization.

I'm going to ask a question about functionality.

We know from multiple Auditor General's reports that over and over again, in both CIC and CBSA auditors general have highlighted a lack of training, resources, integration of information, and monitoring of technologies. We're also seeing funding cuts now to the Canada Border Services Agency. I think all of these problems put Canadians at risk.

In response to the Auditor General's recommendations, the minister said that the department accepts the recommendations and will implement the recommendations that were made by the auditors general. We have not seen them in Bill C-43. It seems to me that providing CBSA with the training and tools they need is actually to provide preventive methods to keep us all safe.

Would you agree that allocating resources to CBSA and CIC allows them to do their jobs with the utmost success they could achieve to keep us all safe?

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

I agree to a certain point.

I mentioned in my brief the amount of $31.4 billion. What I might suggest is to take a look at how many individuals are coming into our country and offending and reoffending, which is quite a high number, and look at the breakdown financially. What Bill C-43 would do is definitely strengthen that process and possibly free up some of the money that is going into protecting them from deportation and it could be used for training.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Right, but what we're seeing from auditors—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm sorry, but time has expired.

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Dykstra?

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Yes. There was a request by Ms. Rosenfeldt that she submit a report to the clerk. I just wanted to make sure that we had it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We have it, sir.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I want to thank both of you for coming and helping us with this bill. Thank you very much.

This meeting is adjourned.