Evidence of meeting #58 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was serious.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Reynaldo Reis Visarra Jr. Pagtakhan  Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual
Kerri Froc  Staff Lawyer, Law Reform and Equality, Canadian Bar Association
Michael Greene  Member, National Immigration Law Section, Canadian Bar Association
Rivka Augenfeld  Representative, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes
Richard Goldman  Refugee Protection Coordinator, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I'm going to follow up in a similar vein. We've heard from Auditor General reports time and time again about the lack of resources, not having adequate training for the CBSA and not having adequate integration of CBSA and CIC staff.

Do you think we should be investing more time in ensuring that our existing legislation is adequate to achieve the goals of this legislation? Should we be investing in making sure that our existing legislation is actually being enforced, rather than just writing new legislation?

4:20 p.m.

Member, National Immigration Law Section, Canadian Bar Association

Michael Greene

I'm going to leave some of that to the political realm, but I'll say that I don't think changing the legislation is going to solve the problem. There is still going to be a problem. With somebody who is ordered deported and doesn't have a right of appeal, we will still go through the same process of gathering information and presenting it. We just do it in writing. Then it goes off to an officer in downtown Calgary, in my case, and then to downtown Ottawa, and the process takes many months. I've seen those things stretch out for years, inexplicably. But I know what it is. They're just stretched a little thin in resources. I say it's priorities.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

Contrary to what I said, I understand the bells are now going to ring at 5:45, so this session will end at 4:30.

Mr. Menegakis.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to our witnesses for appearing before us today. I am finding your testimony to be very interesting.

I have a couple of statistics. Last year 43 million people visited Canada's immigration website. A record 265,000 people were accepted as immigrants into the country. This is a record number since the second world war, something that is going to be repeated again this year. Surely, law-abiding people should have the priority of coming here over those who would break our laws and commit crimes.

Ms. Sims referred to the Clinton Gayle case as a sensational case. I would agree with her. It is very sensational. Todd Baylis, at 24 years of age, was gunned down. He was murdered by a serial killer, a drug dealer. While on his duties as a police officer, he was trying to disrupt a crack cocaine drug deal. Clinton Gayle was still in Canada because he had appealed to the immigration appeal division, IAD.

Mr. Pagtakhan, do you agree that criminals like Clinton Gayle, serial criminals convicted of serious crimes like drug dealing, should have the right to an appeal?

4:25 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual

Reynaldo Reis Visarra Jr. Pagtakhan

No, they have the right to discuss these issues at sentencing. This was a case in Ontario. The Court of Appeal of Ontario has said that. If he could convince the Court of Appeal to give him a sentence under the amount that would allow him to appeal at the immigration appeal division, then so be it. Let the sentencing judge make the decision. The sentencing judge is hearing the evidence of the actual crime, the evidence of the police officers, the witnesses, the victims. At sentencing the judge can hear the argument of counsel for the defence. This is where the protection lies for the accused, who, by the time he is going to be sentenced, is now the convicted.

That is where the protection lies, and there is no necessity for an additional appeal. The protection is already there, as set out, in this case, by the Ontario Court of Appeal.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Over the last few days that we've been debating this legislation and doing this study on Bill C-43, I've heard several witnesses refer to the issue of permanent residence. Some people may come here at two years of age and decide they're going to enter criminal life at age 30. Some wonder whether they should be treated as a foreign criminal or as a local, even as a Canadian citizen.

In my opinion, there's a difference between a permanent resident and a Canadian citizen. If you're old enough to commit those crimes, you should know some of the benefits of Canadian citizenship. You've had plenty of opportunity in your lifetime to attain that.

The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association have come out strongly in support of Bill C-43, saying it will make Canadians, including the vast majority of immigrants in Canada who are honest and law-abiding, much safer.

Do you agree or disagree with the views of these police organizations?

4:25 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual

Reynaldo Reis Visarra Jr. Pagtakhan

On the issue of taking away the right of appeal for people who have been convicted of a crime of six months or more, I'll answer yes. You've heard my testimony on some of the other issues with which I have concerns.

I agree, Mr. Menegakis, with your assessment. These individuals have made a decision to commit a crime. You have to have what we lawyers call actus reus and mens rea to commit a crime. These people have made that decision. They are criminals. They are not the accused. They are not presumed innocent anymore. When you make that decision, you have to face the consequences.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you very much.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Menegakis.

Mr. Leung, you are the final speaker.

November 7th, 2012 / 4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing.

Let me say that in my life, I've lived in Taiwan, Japan, and Canada. When I came to Canada as an international student, it was quite clear to me that I valued the systems of law and order and good governance here. The fear of not completing my studies if I ran afoul of the law was a heavy burden to hang over me, as was just being a good citizen in this country. I find it difficult to fathom how as lawyers evaluating the legal system and as legislators, we allow this type of discussion to go on when it indicates that we are allowing people to come here who have disrespect for our legal system or disrespect for our law.

Mr. Pagtakhan, I wish to hear from you whether it is too much to ask of people who come to this country to respect and obey our laws. If not, why do we get ourselves wrapped up in this type of discussion? Perhaps you can address that and give us your thoughts on that.

4:25 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual

Reynaldo Reis Visarra Jr. Pagtakhan

I don't know why we necessarily get wrapped up in these discussions, although these are important discussions and the committee will have important things to say, as do citizens and my colleague, Mr. Greene, of the Canadian Bar Association.

In answer to your first question, it is not too much to expect an individual who immigrates to Canada to respect the law. Frankly, it is not too much to expect Canadian-born individuals, such as me, to respect the law. We expect people to respect the law, and that is why we have a criminal justice system. People who break the law face consequences. Individuals who have chosen not to get Canadian citizenship or have not been here long enough to obtain Canadian citizenship will have other consequences befall them.

Every individual, as every lawyer knows and every judge knows, is presumed to know the law. If you are presumed to know the law, then you'd better be on the right side of it or otherwise face the consequences.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

That also includes people who came here at a young age. Therefore, ignorance of the law is not necessarily an excuse for someone to say that they have a right to stay here because they grew up here all their life and therefore they have no attachment to their country of origin.

4:30 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual

Reynaldo Reis Visarra Jr. Pagtakhan

Mr. Leung, on the issue of people who came here when they younger, clearly there's a bit more sympathy for those individuals. We're not talking about anyone who's been convicted of a crime. We are talking about an individual who's been convicted of a crime and sentenced to a period of incarceration of at least six months. We're not talking about someone who got pulled over for reckless driving. We're talking about someone who has been sentenced to jail. This is serious.

The guidelines of the Criminal Code say that judges shouldn't avoid sentencing people to jail, if that's the way it should be. These are people being given a jail sentence by judges who have heard these cases and have made a decision on a sentence. That's where the difference is. If we were talking about deporting everyone who was convicted of shoplifting one time, I would have a real problem with this, but that's not what we're talking about here, Mr. Leung.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

That's right. My understanding of Bill C-43, is that this particular bill really addresses serious criminality.

4:30 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer, As an Individual

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Mr. Chair, I guess my time's up.

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Pagtakhan, Mr. Greene, Ms. Froc. Thank you for your contribution to the committee. We will take your comments under advisement. Thank you very much for appearing with us.

We will suspend.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We'll reconvene. This meeting will end at 5:25 p.m. and then the committee will go in camera to discuss committee business.

Our final witness is Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes, Rivka Augenfeld, representative, and Richard Goldman, refugee protection coordinator.

You've both been here before on Bill C-31, and we thank you for appearing before us again to give us your views on Bill C-43. Between the two of you, you have up to 10 minutes to make a presentation to the committee.

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Rivka Augenfeld Representative, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the committee for inviting us. I will start in French and then my colleague will continue in English.

The Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes is a group that has existed since 1979. It was established when the boat people were arriving. Everyone here of a certain age remembers that time, I think.

Our organizations operate all over Quebec, helping immigrants and refugees to integrate into Quebec life. The organizations outside Montreal principally provide help to refugees who are selected overseas and refugees sponsored by the government. Our organizations also work with refugee claimants. Normally, the work is done entirely on a volunteer basis because no government subsidizes it.

Today, we want to talk to you about what goes on in the trenches, beyond the labels, because sometimes things are a little nebulous.

Before I hand it over to my colleague, Rick Goldman, I would like to say that Rick Goldman is a lawyer. He works for the Committee to Aid Refugees, which is a not-for-profit organization. He does not do private practice cases, so everything we're saying is coming from a community point of view.

Some of the things we'll be discussing today I hope you will listen with the ears of members of Parliament with constituents. I'm sure everyone of you has had in the past, or recently, cases where people come to you with problems, where you say, that it isn't quite like what you thought a so-called security risk looks like, or what a so-called person with a criminal past looks like. These are human beings in front of you. When you meet them and when you talk to them, you realize that life, as people have lived it, is often not quite the way it looks like on paper.

I will now hand it over to my colleague. We will be mostly addressing the brief you have received.

4:35 p.m.

Richard Goldman Refugee Protection Coordinator, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes

Thanks, again, for your invitation. We are very happy to be here.

We're going to focus on one area of particular concern under Bill C-43: the denial of access to humanitarian and compassionate, or H and C, considerations to persons excluded from refugee protection and the denial of H and C considerations to persons found inadmissible on security grounds who apply for ministerial relief from such inadmissibility.

We'll start with a real-world example of a person who is currently being assisted by one of our member organizations.

This is Salma's story.

While still a student in her civil-war-torn country in Latin America, Salma was recruited into the student arm of the opposition movement. She helped run meetings, sometimes serving coffee and taking minutes, and was involved in organizing peaceful demonstrations. Years later, after peace accords were signed and the movement became a legal political party, she again volunteered during an election campaign. Salma says she inadvertently came across evidence of illegal activities and was targeted by party officials, who first threatened, and then brutally assaulted her.

She fled to Canada to seek asylum; however, the Immigration and Refugee Board found that her involvement in the movement, which had a guerrilla arm that had targeted some civilians during the civil war, excluded her from being considered for refugee protection in Canada. She was deemed to be “complicit in crimes against humanity”.

In addition, even though an official at the Canada Border Services Agency confirmed that Salma had never been involved in any act of violence and posed no danger to Canada, by the automatic effect of the law she also became inadmissible for permanent residence under section 35 of IRPA.

Canadian medical professionals believe that Salma was indeed the victim of sexual assault and that a return to her country would be extremely destructive to her mental health. She has no family to return to back home. Her only son and her ex-spouse have immigrated to Canada in separate immigration procedures.

Now, under the law as it stands today, Salma can still apply for permanent residence on humanitarian and compassionate grounds. In examining such an application, an officer would have to weigh the factors present: the hardship for Salma of returning to the country of her traumatization; her medical situation; the best interests of any child affected; the links she has developed to Canada; and, of course, the nature of her activities with the organization with which she was associated. The officer could then decide whether to grant Salma permanent residence on H and C grounds, including a waiver from her inadmissibility; however, Bill C-43 would render this impossible. She could not even make an H and C application.

In the previous presentation, I heard it referred to that people make H and C applications to delay their removal from Canada. Just to be completely clear on this, an H and C application does not delay somebody's removal from Canada.

This is a matter of great concern to us. It is our experience that Salma's case is not an isolated one. Rather, it is our experience that the exclusion clauses are being applied by the IRB in an increasingly broad manner. Our experience is corroborated by a comprehensive academic study which decries the growing culture of exclusion in Canada. This study, “The Growing Culture of Exclusion: Trends in Canadian Refugee Exclusions”, which is cited fully in our brief, was published in 2011. It examined every exclusion case made public during the period 1998 to 2008. Here are some of the conclusions:

Exclusions at the IRB have increased dramatically during this period: from two cases in 1998 to a high of 114 in 2004 and 79 in 2008:

The Canadian government has aggressively pursued exclusion by intervening in IRB cases and it has employed ‘creative’ arguments at all levels of adjudication.

On the issue of complicity:

The cases reveal a troubling state of affairs: it is who you are or who you are associated with, rather than what you have done, that often provides the basis for exclusion.

Further:

These understandings of complicity go beyond the findings of international criminal tribunals, which ‘only dealt with persons most responsible for international crimes’. In this way, refugee law is being used to assign culpability at a far lower threshold than international criminal law.

Finally, the authors, who are two academics from UBC, conclude:

This fails to conform to the humanitarian requirements of international refugee law and to international human rights law, and it ignores the fact that many of the excluded claimants have never participated in violence or specific crimes, and would not have been excluded a decade ago.

That's the first part of our main concern.

The second part is the eliminating of agency considerations from applications for ministerial relief. We sometimes see people whose stories are very similar to the one I just told you, but who are caught by the inadmissibility provisions in a different way.

For example, even if the IRB had chosen not to exclude Salma and had granted her refugee status, she could have subsequently found herself declared inadmissible to Canada, under section 34 of IRPA, for having been a member of an organization that there are reasonable grounds to believe has engaged in instigating the subversion of force of any government.

I don't think I'm the first person to tell you this, but as has frequently been observed, even Nelson Mandela, were he not an honorary Canadian citizen, would fit this definition.

Under the law as it stands today, such persons can apply for ministerial relief from their inadmissibility. To succeed, they must satisfy the minister that their presence in Canada would not be detrimental to the national interest. Historically the minister has taken agency considerations, such as the ones I was talking about earlier, into account in examining such requests.

However, Bill C-43 would amend the relevant section to read that the minister may only take into account national security and public safety considerations, but in his or her analysis is not limited to considering the danger that the foreign national presents to the public or the security of Canada.

Under the same provision of Bill C-43, which I talked about with Salma's case, such persons are also barred from filing applications for permanent residence on H and C grounds. They're barred either from asking for ministerial relief on humanitarian grounds or applying for permanent residence on humanitarian grounds.

We believe that this complete exclusion of H and C considerations in these contexts is contrary to Canada's international obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which among other things provides protection of family rights and security of the person.

We believe it also violates Canada's obligations under the Convention on the Rights of the Child since it would eliminate consideration of the best interests of the child, which is normally an important part of H and C decision-making. It would also violate our obligations under the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, CEDAW, which protects women against gender-based discrimination.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Perhaps you could wind up, Mr. Goldman, please.

4:45 p.m.

Refugee Protection Coordinator, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes

Richard Goldman

Okay.

Our recommendations are that clauses 9 and 10 of Bill C-43 should be amended to ensure that persons excluded from refugee protection are nonetheless permitted to file H and C applications and have them fully considered.

Clause 18 of Bill C-43 should be amended to eliminate any restrictions on the factors the minister may consider in examining requests for ministerial relief.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much.

Mr. Weston has the floor.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for being here.

I think that everyone here recognizes that Canada is perhaps the most generous country in the world when it comes to our refugee immigration policy.

Isaac Newton said that to every action there is a reaction. We have to think of a way to maintain that generous policy. We have to decide how we can keep bringing 260,000 immigrants into Canada each year, how we can maintain that level of intake that is perhaps the most generous in the world.

My question is about the people with permanent resident status in Canada. Is it reasonable to expect those people to refrain from committing serious crimes here in Canada in order to keep both their status and the trust of Canadians and other immigrants who would like to come to Canada?

4:45 p.m.

Refugee Protection Coordinator, Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes

Richard Goldman

I absolutely agree. I think all our member organizations agree that it is not too much to expect foreign nationals to obey the law, just like Canadian citizens. We absolutely agree that where there's an action there should be a reaction. The question is one of proportionality, one of degree.

I think everyone here agrees that foreign criminals should be removed from Canada as quickly as possible. Our concern is that this new definition of serious criminality has lowered the threshold alarmingly. If the 18-year-old kid who lives next door to you breaks into your house and drinks some of your liquor, you'd probably want to have him punished. You'd probably even want to give him a kick in the behind, but you probably shouldn't be taking the law into your own hands. If he came from Iran or Eritrea at age three, he has no family back home, he doesn't speak, read, or write the language, I think most Canadians would agree there should be some weighing of the humanitarian considerations as to whether he should be deported from Canada.