Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 19th, 2012

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Now, those individuals who are having to go through an appeal, are they going to have to pay additional costs?

[Les Linklater]

No.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So it would be a standard cost. Do you have a sense of what the appeal system is going to cost the government?

[Les Linklater]

Well, as I said, we are looking at additional resources for the operational network to be able to deal with added volumes of potential interviews where we're not doing them now, because these are visa-exempt nationals. So—

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Again, Mr. Linklater, only because of limited time, I would appreciate hearing those actual numbers—whatever you might have—in terms of the department.

The other question is in regard to the overall data. There's a phenomenal amount of data now, which the Canadian government is going to be collecting. We're interested in knowing how long you're going to be retaining that data. Also, do you plan on sharing the data that's collected with the United States or with any other stakeholders?

[Les Linklater]

There is no plan at this point to share the information beyond Canadian agencies that are responsible for or have a role in the processing of visitor or visa applications.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Okay.

Are you able to provide us what information you're going to be requesting over the Internet, beyond just name and address?

[Les Linklater]

We can do that.

I'll ask Ms. Welbourne to speak to the detail.

[Maia Welbourne]

It's essentially the same kind of information that would be asked of a visa type of application. Essentially, the purpose of the information being requested is to determine an individual's admissibility to Canada. While we haven't designed the form at this point—and we'll figure out the details—it's essentially for similar kinds of information.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So it's fair to say that we can anticipate that whatever it is you'll be filling out for a visiting visa application is in essence what you're going to be requesting. You're talking about maybe a 15-minute type of application to fill out?

[Maia Welbourne]

Our goal is to make it as “light touch” as possible. As I say, we haven't come to ground exactly on what information, but we hope to make it as user-friendly and as straightforward as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Lamoureux.

Mr. Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would say, Mr. Linklater, that this is actually the appropriate level of consultation for this topic. We've scheduled six hours for essentially four paragraphs, and this has been referred to us from the finance committee. Because this is televised and public, I would suggest that this is a pretty transparent process.

In regard to the question of tourism that was brought up, I would just state that I think the offsets gained for the Canadian taxpayer by keeping out criminals, bogus refugee claimants, and others that would commit harm to this country far outweigh any potential impact there, if there's any at all. I would just say that.

Ms. Welbourne, I want to give you an opportunity to elaborate on and clarify some of your discussions with the Privacy Commissioner in a little more detail.

[Maia Welbourne]

As I mentioned, we did go forward over the summer. We gave a presentation about our plans for the project, writ large, and had a very good two-way conversation that was an opportunity for the Office of the Privacy Commissioner to raise any issues they had and to ask any questions. Coming out of that, what we took from them will help us guide the work we do, particularly through the regulatory process.

But as I said, we did undertake to work very closely with the OPC. I think the crux really will be in the privacy impact assessment. That is the document that really frames how, when, and what we will do with the information we receive: what kind of information we'll be asking for and how it will be used, retained, and disposed of. That's where it gets really nitty-gritty, and, as I said, we have undertaken to work closely with the OPC on that element in particular.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's great.

Mr. Linklater, you said that if somebody is refused at a foreign port they have the opportunity to then talk to a live Canadian person. That default is there: where the machine fails, the human being can then step up and take over. What about the example of the case of somebody who has the same name as a known criminal or terrorist? How is that dealt with?

[Les Linklater]

Again, if there is a need for further information or clarification, the individual would speak to a visa officer to be able to clarify.

Perhaps just to take a step back, the process with what we would call a triage centre here in Canada would be that it would be staffed 24/7, and if there were issues like this that came up, there would be a human intervention in Ottawa. In regard to the same name, perhaps that intervention could clarify, through conversations with our security partners, whether or not this was the individual in question or if it was a bit of an identity issue, in which case Ottawa—the triage centre—could authorize the eTA without the individual needing to speak to an officer. If there was still confusion after the triage centre had engaged with screening partners, then there would be a request for an interview with a Canadian visa officer.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

A method of redress exists. That's outstanding.

Do you think the eTA would potentially help to identify residency fraud cases?

[Les Linklater]

This would not apply to permanent residents or Canadian citizens. However, we are working with the Canada Border Services Agency, under the rubric of the perimeter strategy, on an entry-exit information system being piloted at two or four ports on the land border. Once expanded to the air mode around 2015-16, it will be an opportunity for the Government of Canada to have a better sense of the residency requirements being met by permanent residents.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

As we establish this for ourselves, how are we sharing best practices with the U.S., Australia, Great Britain, and New Zealand?

[Maia Welbourne]

My team and I had the opportunity to visit both the U.S. team responsible for ESTA and the Australian immigration department to talk in depth with them about their experiences in setting up those two systems. We spent a very helpful full-day session with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, and they took us through their experience in setting it up, how they went about it, communications, IT solutions, and so on. That was very helpful. The Australian government was equally able to share a lot of aspects.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Linklater, can you tell us, if we don't set this system up, what will be the long-term impacts for Canada?

[Les Linklater]

We see where other countries are going, particularly the United States, which has had ESTA since 2008, with good success and from which we are learning. A clear example would be issues related to refugee claimants. Under the current system, we estimate the cost to Canadian taxpayers for a rejected claimant runs up to about $50,000 a year with regard to access to social services, welfare, and that sort of thing. With the new system that's coming on board later this year, further to Bill C-31, we would expect those costs to go down, given the shortened period of time that individuals are in Canada, but it's still a significant amount, $29,000 or $30,000 a year.

With eTA, if there are questions around legitimacy of traveller intent and an eTA is refused, then that's a cost avoidance of $30,000 per refugee claimant under the new determination system.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

A lot of this you said is going to be applied to people before they apply or jump on an aircraft. Are there other methods of transport to which this is going to be applied?

[Les Linklater]

The initial program design is only for the air mode. As we start to look at the volumes of individuals who are passing across the land border, that's where the cooperation with the U.S. is so essential to an alignment between Canada's eTA and the U.S. ESTA to ensure that, once in the perimeter, security risks are absolutely minimized for crossing the 49th parallel, but to really push the risks offshore, outside continental Canada and the United States.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Linklater, you indicated the results would be known within minutes of applying. So if I were from a country from which we don't require a visa and I went to a travel agent or online, at the same time I'd fill out a form online.... For those who go to the airport to buy a ticket at the last minute, that's still possible. Who does that? Are the airlines going to have—