Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 19th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Yes, Colonel.

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

It might be of some assistance to the committee to inform the committee that the term “armed conflict” actually appears in a number of places already in the federal statute base, including: the Geneva Conventions Act; the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act; the National Defence Act; the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act; the Foreign Enlistment Act; the Security of Information Act; the Emergencies Act; the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act; the Canada Shipping Act; and the Criminal Code.

It's a term that is very much part of Canadian law already in terms of being incorporated in the federal statute base created by acts of Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

I still think we'll let members think about what I've suggested. We can deal with that at another time.

Mr. Calkins, you have up to five minutes, sir. Welcome to the committee.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your kind welcome. I'm going to be seized with thinking about what I'm going to do in the event that I do come back to this committee on the scope of this.

I have questions for the witnesses who are appearing here today. I know that you're here to answer very technical questions, but I'm going to ask you questions in the broader scope of your role as members of the Canadian armed forces, and simply try to make my point that way. I'm not going to lead you down some path where you're going to get into trouble, so don't worry about that.

I'll put this in the context of where I'm coming from and where my constituents, the good folks of the riding of Wetaskiwin, Alberta, are when it comes to this particular piece of legislation. I've had Mr. Shory come to my riding and meet with my constituents on this particular matter. The intent and spirit of this bill were met with very positive feedback from my constituents.

Just in the broader sense, when you first joined the Canadian armed forces, did you have to take an oath of any kind?

[Col François Bariteau]

Could you repeat the question, please?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Did you have to take an oath of any kind in joining the Canadian Forces?

[Col François Bariteau]

Yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Do you remember that oath?

[Col François Bariteau]

Essentially, it is to bear true allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen, to show integrity and to be loyal to Canada and to the powers conferred on its government.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's actually very similar to the oath that people take when they become Canadian citizens. For those of us who are MPs at this table and have gone to citizenship ceremonies for the swearing-in of new citizens, of whom this bill would potentially affect a small number, if any, in the event that this bill would become law, we know that they too took a similar oath, swearing allegiance to Her Majesty The Queen and of course taking up all of the rights and responsibilities of that citizenship.

In your oath, I think you're also sworn to defend with your life, if you have to, those basic freedoms and principles that we have. I'm going to ask you this, and it's very simple: will you defend and will your colleagues defend, with your lives, if you're asked to, my right to peaceful assembly and protest?

It's not a trick question. This may be what you're asked to do. The names of my forebears are on the cenotaphs in my hometown. This is not a trick question. I'm not trying to lead you down a garden path here. This is a serious question.

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

Mr. Chair, pursuant to the National Defence Act, the enrolment of a member of the Canadian Forces binds them to serve in obedience to any lawful command. If one were commanded to defend a particular person or a particular interest, then one would do that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

You're here to defend the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that we have in Canada. These are the basic freedoms and principles that we have. I'm just going through these.

You would defend with your life, if you were asked to, my right to have a free conscience and my choice of religion, right? If that's what it came down to, that's part of our Canadian core values, right?

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

Essentially, yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

My freedom to associate and choose my friends and organizations in my community; you would defend that, right?

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

Yes, as part of the instructions given to us by the Government of Canada in pursuance of a mission.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

My right to life, liberty, and the security of my person, my fellow persons—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Calkins, you know, it's—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Chair, I do have a point to make here.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Well, I have a point to make too. My concern is whether or not these issues are relevant to the bill.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Oh, I think they are. I'll get to it if you will allow me, Chair. I need just a couple more minutes, if you don't mind. I'm not trying to put you in an awkward position because I think from my perspective, and whether it's the security of my person, my thoughts, my beliefs, my freedom of expression, and even my ability to vote, it's my constitutional right. It's a constitutional right of every Canadian citizen, and through that peaceful assembly, through that ability to protest, and through that ability to choose my government, or to choose to vote against my government, that is a decision I make at the ballot box. The question we're talking about here is a choice that's made on a battlefield, and we can talk about the terms and conditions of defining that, but I think it behooves all of us here to take that into consideration.

When you're willing to put your life on the line to defend those very rights and freedoms I have here, I think it's incumbent upon me as a parliamentarian to protect you from any enemy within who might be creating a situation where you cannot safely do your job to protect my liberties and the freedoms I have here.

That's the point I was trying to make, Mr. Chair. We have every opportunity in Canada to work for a government that we want and to work against a government that we don't want, but we limit that capacity in some way through the laws and the statutes we have in this country. The proposed law that is currently before us is one that I think all parliamentarians should take very seriously in the matter of making sure that the men and women who do serve at our request and on our behalf to keep us free have the protection. This piece of legislation, I think, affords that protection.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins.

Go ahead, Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank both of you for your expertise.

I know we may have our analyst look into the definitions. I had a passing question about armed conflict. When somebody has a gun and robs my house, it's called armed robbery. If I have a gun and she has a gun and we're fighting each other, is that considered armed conflict? Where do we go in establishing fact? How is that done?

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

Chair, generally the question, I think, invokes the difference between criminal law in a domestic context and armed conflict in international law. In essence, armed conflict involves states or organized armed groups, whereas the action of armed robbery or assault is an individual criminal offence under criminal law.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

In clause 2 of the bill the term “legal resident” is mentioned, and as far as I know, it's also not defined in Canadian law. Critics have warned that this risks creating stateless people, which is of course a contravention of international law.

What is the definition of a legal resident and how will this term be interpreted in Bill C-425 as you understand it, as an expert?

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

Mr. Chair, I believe that question might be better addressed by the legal counsel who will accompany the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration . That's really not a question of military law, so I think it's outside the ambit of my expertise to respond.