Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 16th, 2013

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

That's only in the last four or five years, I think you said.

[Dr. Catherine Dauvergne]

It is since 2006. To clarify, the U.K. has succeeded in revoking citizenship, but in all of those cases the end result of that process is to keep people out of the U.K. or to deport them, not to bring them to justice.

Again, to come back to your first point, I think a concern that's shared by everybody in this room is that people who perpetrate heinous acts should be brought to justice and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, not sent away to some quiet corner of the world where they can plot against you.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

But my feeling would be that—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Pacetti, I'm sorry, we are over time.

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to all of our guests.

I'm going to direct a couple questions first to Mr. Gupta, then to the other witnesses as well.

First I would like to make a small point for clarification. Mr. Pacetti said Professor Dauvergne had indicated there had been no one stripped of their citizenship, but actually you said a number have not been successful. I wanted to clarify that for the record.

First of all, thank you for being here, Mr. Gupta. We really appreciate your testimony today.

You talked a little bit about Canadian citizens with dual citizenship who have been involved in bombings in Bulgaria, and of course, Algeria. Your situation goes back to the Air India bombing, but only this past weekend it has come to light there may be a fourth Canadian involved in the acts that happened over in Algeria. I think back a number of years, and I don't recall radicalization in Canada being a problem. Now, in the last 10 years with training camps that were discovered in Ontario, we have had previous witnesses saying there are a number of investigations going on right across this country into various cells. I want to get your opinion on whether you think radicalization of Canadian citizens is a growing problem here in Canada.

[Dr. Bal Gupta]

It is. It is not a new phenomena. Even the Air India tragedy was a result of radicals who brought their problems from somewhere outside Canada into Canada.

Let me put it this way, if Mr.Talwinder Singh Parmar had been extradited from Germany into India way back when, probably the Air India tragedy would not have happened.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Do you think any of this ties into the economic or social issues of those being radicalized here in Canada?

[Dr. Bal Gupta]

There may be some. I think probably the sociologists would tell you that. I'm not saying there are no issues; there definitely are issues.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In your testimony you talked about things that are Canadian values, what we as Canadians hold dear, what we treasure in our hearts. You mentioned life, liberty, peace, and prosperity. I can add freedom and democracy to that long list as well.

Do you think anyone who sets out to commit an act of terrorism against Canadians, on Canadian soil or abroad, against the interests of Canada as a whole, values those things the rest of us do here in Canada?

[Dr. Bal Gupta]

No, not at all. Not only that, they think this is their birthright by being in Canada and the charter of rights protects them to do these things against the charter of rights.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to direct a couple of questions to Mr. Waldman as well.

Thank you for being here through the video conference. I'm going back to something you said that my colleague Mr. Menegakis spoke to you about. I'm going to quote you, as I wrote it down. You actually said that lots of Canadians who are dual nationals will fall “victims of this legislation”. Are you saying that we have a lot of Canadians here who are going to be would-be terrorists? Is that what you're saying by making that statement? You said a lot of Canadians who are dual nationals will fall victim to this legislation. I mean we're talking about radicalization. I think we have a much bigger problem if that's the statement and you stand behind it.

[Lorne Waldman]

If you want to talk about radicalization, I think it is a big problem and it's one that we'd be far better spending the money that we spent on this process—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Waldman, I'm sorry. I guess the question is whether you believe there are lots of Canadians who will fall victim to this legislation. By falling victim to this legislation they'd have to be involved in an act of terrorism, convicted by a court of law after due process with endless appeals. Do you actually believe there are lots of Canadians who will fall victim to this legislation?

[Lorne Waldman]

I believe that there are Canadians who will fall victim who are completely innocent, absolutely. I give you the example of Bashir Makhtal and Mr. Celil. They're both people who were convicted, and based upon my understanding of the minister's intention of this legislation to allow foreign convictions to apply, we'll be beholden to foreign governments that don't provide due process to determine whether or not Canadians lose their citizenship. Canadians—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Waldman, obviously we're at different ends of the spectrum. When I think of victims of crime and victims of terrorism, I actually look to the witness who is here, Mr. Gupta, and the people of the Air India bombing. Yet you consistently talk about convicted terrorists as being the victims, or that people will fall victim to this legislation.

I was listening to the testimony and some of your answers and your questions. You seem to imply that you think that people who do not know that they are dual citizens would actually not commit an act of terrorism if they knew that they had dual citizenship and could be stripped of their Canadian status. I'm going to say that if that's what you really think, then obviously this legislation is going to work. If you don't know that you are a dual citizen and you're going to commit an act of terrorism, knowing that you're going to be able to stay in Canada and reap the benefits of everything we offer, but if you think you could be stripped of that citizenship, you may not do the same act. Is that what you actually said?

[Lorne Waldman]

No, ma'am. What I was trying to point out to you in my comments was the difficulty of applying legislation that talks about dual nationality. As anyone who understands the law and applies this law all the time knows, determining whether or not a person is a citizen of another country is extremely complicated. It implies interpreting foreign law because—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's right, it can be—

[Lorne Waldman]

—many people—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

It can be difficult. I do it all the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. James.

Order, Mr. Waldman.

You have to let him finish. If you ask a question, you have to let him finish. You may not like the answer, but you have to let him finish.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Go ahead, Mr. Waldman.

[Lorne Waldman]

The issue with respect to the dual nationality is simply twofold. One is that it's extremely difficult to determine whether or not a person has dual nationality. Many people in Canada may have dual nationality without even knowing it, and I can cite numerous examples based upon foreign laws. When you couple that concern with the complete lack of any due process contemplated by this legislation, you create huge problems in terms of due process and fairness for people who might be stripped of this. When you add—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[Lorne Waldman]

—to that the third concern.... I'm just finishing my comment, ma'am