[Inaudible—Editor]...get finished.
Evidence of meeting #83 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #83 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 p.m.
NDP
11:45 p.m.
NDP
Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
I feel that as a woman parliamentarian, as a young woman who is a parliamentarian.... I faced many barriers to be able to even enter politics, and while here, I would think that this House, this Parliament, the highest place where anything is done for this country with elected officials, would actually be respectful of the two genders, of the two sexes, and that as a woman I would actually be treated as a parliamentarian, and not as less of a parliamentarian because I am a woman.
Madam Chair, you know that I can't say what was said multiple times, what was or was not mentioned while we were in camera. I can't articulate exactly what that was, Madam Chair, but what I can say is that what we've seen even just this evening with what is happening.... We know that when there was another time when I felt.... I was victimized by another person, and we know that I actually—
11:45 p.m.
A voice
Oh, oh!
11:45 p.m.
NDP
Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Once again, we have people laughing at me while I share my point of privilege, Madam Chair.
11:45 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
I really ask committee members to be respectful and to listen to each other's point of view.
11:45 p.m.
NDP
Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Because I know you were on the committee at the time and present in the room when this happened, when I was victimized by somebody here so that I could not even continue my duties as a member on this committee, because I was led to tears and had to leave the room, Madam Chair.... Maybe some of the other people—
11:45 p.m.
NDP
11:45 p.m.
NDP
Mylène Freeman NDP Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
This is the second time that my colleague mentions this particular incident and laughter occurs on the other side of the table.
11:45 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Madame Freeman, may I ask you to contain yourself?
Mr. Dykstra.
11:45 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
May I also say to you and everybody else that I will be dealing with this point of privilege and I will get to others. I will be addressing everybody's issues. But could we simply give each other the time and the patience to listen to each other? We may not always be in agreement. I'm really trying to listen to this question of privilege because I have to respond to it and I'm finding it's a bit too much of a decorum issue.
11:45 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
It is a point of privilege on this side, too, because—
11:45 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
—these are unsubstantiated allegations—
11:45 p.m.
Conservative
11:45 p.m.
Conservative
11:45 p.m.
NDP
11:45 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
—fabricated, exaggerated—
11:45 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
I'm going to suspend the meeting for five minutes.
11:53 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Does everybody want to return?
I want to remind people that this chair is not willing to tolerate poor decorum to the stage at which I cannot hear people and we can't conduct the meeting.
The process the chair is going to follow right now is that a point of privilege has been raised. Ms. Sitsabaiesan gets to finish her point of privilege. I will rule on that point of privilege, and that's how we're going to proceed.
If anybody else feels their privilege has been violated, or they want to raise a point of order, they will get exactly the same treatment.
The chair is going to proceed right now. I'm hoping that in the very near future we can get back to Madame Groguhé for a very eloquent and well thought out speech.
Madame Sitsabaiesan—did I pronounce your name correctly this time?
11:53 p.m.
NDP
Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
You did. Thank you, Madam Chair.
There was a point, one example, Madam Chair—I'll just go back so that you have the full example. There was a time when I was actually brought to tears because of something that was said that personally attacked me. I felt personally violated and attacked as a result of comments being made, and I actually could not continue my duties as an MP on that committee. I had to leave the room so as not to disrupt the rest of the proceedings of the committee. When I brought it up with the chair afterwards, I was dismissed by the chair, just kind of shooed off. Then, when I challenged the chair—the person sitting in the chair at the time was male—my challenge was ignored. I was dismissed once again. We know that the proper procedure is for the Speaker of the House to make a ruling, and that was not done.
I appreciate our chair for apologizing to me after the fact, but at that point there was nothing that could be done.
Madam Chair, there are other examples that have taken place just today that continue to hinder my ability as a woman parliamentarian. As soon as the public part of our meeting disappears and there's bullying behaviour by members opposite, it doesn't make it a safe working environment for me when I have to deal with this type of harassment. When one member says, “Is that the only tool you have left in you?”, or when another member says, “Hey, Rathika, do you need a kleenex?”, making fun of me—sarcastic remarks about my very serious concerns, about my ability to continue my role, my ability to carry out my duties as a member of Parliament—it is seriously not tolerable, Madam Chair.
Another thing is with regard to women who are being personally attacked or whose authority is being questioned. For example, Madam Chair, you yourself saw how many times your rulings were just ignored and people continued to talk over them. When the chair makes a decision or a ruling, that is a ruling. And what did we see in this committee? Because you as a female chair made a ruling, people decided to ignore it and speak right over it.
This type of bullying behaviour cannot be tolerated. I refuse to continue in this type of working environment, Madam Chair. That is my question of privilege that I'm raising with you today.
11:55 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Thank you very much, and I want to thank the member for raising a point of privilege. And as she so rightfully said, a point of privilege, as you know, can only be addressed in the House by the Speaker.
But I do want to remind members, all members.....
I'm hoping, Mr. Dykstra, you're listening as well, because this will apply to you in equal standing. I would once again give a reminder that a certain level of decorum is required here—not a certain level, but I would say there is a bar that we shouldn't be sinking below.
I want to remind members that there is no way any member should feel harassed, intimidated, or bullied at committee, or anywhere else in the world, really. I've been teaching anti-bullying all my life. It is very difficult for the chair to look at things retrospectively, because when those behaviours occur it's really important that they are recognized and spoken about at the time, or as close to the time as possible. As time passes, it is very difficult for us to go back, for this chair anyway, to try to deal with those things.
The chair is once again going to say there is a big difference between privilege and feelings being hurt and being bullied. I think there are different places where these things can be addressed, but as far as this committee is concerned—I am actually going to make this very firm now, so I'm hoping all of you are listening—I am not going to tolerate anybody making, I would say, unparliamentary comments or heckling unnecessarily when the other person is speaking.
Look, I'm not going to say all of you have to sit here like this either. We're all human beings. Sometimes we say things, but I think we do have to be respectful and careful of the words we choose. This doesn't just apply to one side of the room; it applies to everybody at this committee.
I would urge the member, in regard to these concerns you have expressed, that if it happens again you bring it to the chair's attention there and then, and then put processes in place.
I also want to remind people that it's very easy when you're feeling under pressure to start bringing up things from the past. There is a certain time limitation as to how you can address things that happened outside of this meeting, at least for this chair. But the chair will very conscientiously and very deliberately take a look to ensure that is not happening here.
Whether it's a man who is being bullied or whether it's a woman being bullied, neither is acceptable. I have both a son and a daughter, and I wouldn't want either one of them to be the victim of bullies. I think we always think that bullying only occurs one way. I would say that at times, as a chair, I have noticed that in our excitement sometimes some members have words come out of their mouths. I must admit that I may have been guilty of this at different times, so I'm trying to be very conscious of my behaviour as well. Let's all of us reflect on that, and make sure that we don't create a situation where a member feels bullied, intimidated, or picked on.
As far as privilege goes, privilege cannot be decided here. That has to be decided by the Speaker. In this case, from what I have observed in the meeting today, I can't make a ruling, but I would not say I saw privilege being...what is it? The right word would be “transgressed”.
