Evidence of meeting #16 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anita Biguzs  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Heather Neufeld  Representative, Canadian Council for Refugees
Chantal Desloges  Lawyer, Chantal Desloges Professional Corporation, As an Individual
Julie Taub  Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

4:40 p.m.

Chantal Desloges Lawyer, Chantal Desloges Professional Corporation, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I've been doing immigration for about 20 years, and I'm a certified specialist in immigration and refugee law. I'm not an expert in violence against women, so I'm going to limit my comments today to things that I've seen on the ground in my practice as a lawyer, real-life examples and things I have actually observed personally.

From my observation, the issue of violence against women in the immigration system has many causes, but it breeds on two factors. First of all, there's a lack of information and education, initially, by women who are immigrating to Canada. Second, there's a situation of isolation in which they find themselves after they immigrate to Canada, which keeps them in a powerless position of being unable to learn about their rights.

From thousands of spousal sponsorships that I've handled personally, I see the solutions in the immigration context as being divided into two separate factors. First of all, what can we do before the woman arrives in Canada to ensure she is arriving in the best possible conditions to be able to understand what her rights are? Second, what can we do after she arrives in terms of integration and settlement into the community, so that even if she doesn't know her rights before she gets here, she will at least somehow learn about them after she arrives?

With the sponsorship process itself, there are some gaps that I think could be addressed, some through regulatory revision and some through simple procedural changes. The first one is sponsorship eligibility. Under our current system, a sponsor must be 18 years old in order to sponsor a spouse. However, the sponsored applicant, the person who is overseas, need only be 16 years old to be sponsored as a married person. I see that as problematic. I think probably the reason it was written that way in the first place is to make it consistent with Canadian law. In most provinces you have to be 16 to legally marry. So that's probably why it was written that way in the first place.

But I think there's a strong case to increase the minimum age from 16 to 18 years. I believe it would disincentivize families overseas from forcing their younger daughters to marry so early. Why should we distinguish between marriages that take place in other countries compared to marriages that take place in Canada? Well, I believe people who get married in Canada have all the legal protections of our system. If they enter into an abusive relationship or if they suffer coercion in entering into a marriage, they can access the Canadian legal system to take care of that. However, women overseas do not have those rights.

I'm not saying we shouldn't recognize marriages as legal if they occur in another country with a woman who is under 18 years of age. But I think what we should do is not allow that person to be sponsored until she at least reaches the age of 18. I believe that being faced with the prospect of waiting two years before sponsorship is allowed to take place would disincentivize families and allow them to allow the girls to mature a little bit and reach the age of 18 before rushing into the marriage.

I should state that not all of my colleagues share this view. Contrary views have been expressed, specifically that it would end up putting a girl possibly in a worse position, that if she's married when she's 16 and then has to wait two years before she can be sponsored, she would certainly be much better protected in Canada compared to outside of Canada. But my view is that it's a good case to increase the age of sponsorship.

If I then turn to looking at the specific immigration processes, simple things such as making amendments to application forms and application kits could really go a long way. For example, what I often see in my practice is that young couples are not filling out their application forms and making their sponsorship applications on their own. It is usually an elder family member, a father, uncle, or a brother, who is doing this on their behalf. The problem is that oftentimes young couples do not understand what has been written in the application and do not understand what they are signing. They may not even have been permitted to read those application forms before they signed.

I believe the application form should be amended to have two different spaces on them. The first would be a space that allows people to write down if they had an interpreter who interpreted the contents of that application form to them in their own language. The second space should be for disclosing whether they had someone assist them with preparing those application forms or if someone prepared those application forms on their behalf.

It's not going to be a foolproof solution, but at minimum it's better than the system we have now where people who don't speak English at all sign the application form stating that the contents are true and correct and have no real way of knowing exactly what they have attested to in those application forms. It also allows some accountability later, with someone's signature there as an interpreter; if they did not interpret those forms, it gives someone to go back to, to ask why they didn't do that.

When it comes to consideration of the application, currently many applications are processed without the need for a personal interview. In those cases where a personal interview is required, it is only the foreign national who is required to attend that interview, and the sponsor is not. In fact, most of the time the sponsor is never heard from by the visa officer who is making a decision on the application.

Ideally, I think it would be better to insist on some form of contact with both parties. That does not have to necessarily be a personal interview; it could be something as simple as a phone call to establish contact and make sure there is no situation of coercion or abuse taking place. It should be someone who would speak directly, particularly to the female in the situation, alone, in isolation, without someone being there with her, to make sure that coercion is not taking place.

My issue is what you do in the system when a visa officer does discover that the woman is being coerced or abused. How do you handle that situation? Surely the solution cannot be to send the girl back to her family, in shame, with a refusal letter stating that she disclosed the abuse to the visa officer.

What I think should be on the table for consideration is that an officer might consider applying humanitarian and compassionate consideration to the case as a matter of routine. That is not to say that it has to be successful in every case, but I think an officer should look at whether that might be a possible solution, to allow the girl to immigrate to Canada without having the sponsorship hanging over her head in an abusive situation.

Incidentally, I agree completely with the comments of my friend Ms. Neufeld about the conditional permanent residents. Those domestic violence guidelines need to be clarified.

Finally, the one last recommendation I want to make is that there should be a sponsorship bar for women who have come to Canada, claimed refugee status on the grounds of domestic violence, been accepted, and then a couple of years later want to sponsor the husband who abused her. I do not mean that as a punishment to the woman, but as a means of protecting her. I have personally seen several cases of this happening, where the women come under incredible family pressure to forgive the abuser and to sponsor him to Canada. I believe that putting in a legal barrier to her doing that would relieve her of that obligation, and would relieve her of the family pressure to sponsor someone she probably doesn't want to sponsor in the first place.

I'll confine my comments to that because I think I'm out of time.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You are. Thank you very much.

Ms. Taub, welcome to the committee.

March 5th, 2014 / 4:50 p.m.

Julie Taub Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Thank you for inviting me back.

I'm coming at this a bit differently. My background is as an immigration and refugee protection lawyer. I've done hundreds of, maybe well over a thousand, spousal sponsorships. There have been thousands who have come to me, and I routinely turn down about 20% if I have any indication, any feeling, that this might be a marriage of convenience.

Chantal and I went to Federal Court on this issue of marriages of convenience...back in 2008, wasn't it?

4:50 p.m.

Lawyer, Chantal Desloges Professional Corporation, As an Individual

4:50 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Julie Taub

I'm looking at it from that perspective.

We found at that time that of the 500 victims of marriage of convenience, the majority were immigrants themselves. They were the sponsors who were duped and virtually they have no recourse, and to this date they have no recourse. And many of them, perhaps the majority of these duped immigrant sponsors, were women. And although they made written complaints to the CBSA and to CIC that they had been duped, that their sponsored spouse arrives in Canada and is gone within a few days, within a few months, there's no recourse. The CBSA and CIC does not have the personnel, does not have the means to deal with these allegations. So there is a subgroup of immigrant women who have been abused, and really abused. They may be stuck with enormous debt to pay back social services if their spouse or their former spouse decides to go on welfare within the three years of their financial obligation. Then they have to hire a family lawyer if the spouse goes after them in Family Court for support or division of property.

There is one category of immigrant women who do suffer abuse from another point of view that I would like to bring to your attention as well, because they seem to be left out of this whole equation of abused immigrant women. Now before I came here, I did a consultation with a criminal law firm of Addelman Baum Gilbert in Ottawa. Richard Addelman, the senior lawyer, has been a criminal lawyer since the 1970s. So a report of domestic abuse, as you all know, is not necessarily a real case of abuse. And as they explained to me, there are thousands upon thousands of false allegations of domestic abuse made, particularly in separation cases, divorce cases, custody cases. However, all the spouse has to say is that he abused me yesterday, last year, whenever, the crown has no discretion. They must arrest the accused. They must take him down to the police station, they must proceed with trial, even if the crown knows, even if both are aware there's hardly any evidence or it will not stand, they must proceed to trial.

Now with this new loophole, just because a sponsored spouse says she's been abused, unless it's clearly evident, until there is a trial, how do we know that is not a false allegation of abuse simply to get around the new conditional residency requirement? How do we know how many of these cases are false allegations where a Canadian sponsor will have to hire a criminal lawyer, will have to go to trial, and by the way, it takes a minimum of one year to go to trial, and there are absolutely no consequences for false allegations. Nothing. A judge can tear into the complainant during the criminal trial and tear her testimony to pieces. She will not be charged with perjury. She will not be charged with anything. But a sponsor who was falsely accused of domestic abuse because the sponsored spouse doesn't feel like hanging around for two years and just wants to become a permanent resident, he has to hire a criminal lawyer. His life is destroyed, and it goes on for a year.

I am speaking first-hand of one of my cases, at which I'll be testifying at a criminal trial. I helped a female immigrant, a failed refugee claimant from one of the Scandinavian countries. She came to me when there was a removal order in place against her. I wasn't involved with her refugee claim. She came to me to stop the removal order. She had two children and she had sort of joint custody with her Canadian husband who had withdrawn the sponsorship and their allegations of abuse.

I succeeded, for various reasons, in stopping this removal order. She would disappear for six or seven months at a time. She was having a lot of emotional issues and breakdowns.

Two years later, in 2012, she came back to me, after an absence of about a year, with a new Canadian husband and another child to do an in-Canada spousal sponsorship, and I was really happy for her. And I did, and I proceeded, and we did it. Everything got going. I submitted it. Then in January 2013, I got an email from her, on a particular date, stating, “I'm just terrible at choosing husbands. My marriage has broken down. As usual, I picked the wrong man”—something to that effect—“and he's been abusive, not physically, but he won't give me money to spend as I wish”. It was something like that. She said he was psychologically abusive.

Two days later, I got a call from the husband. These were joint clients I had in the past. He said, “The marriage has failed. I've taken our child. She's had another breakdown and we just can't continue. What am I supposed to do? What are my rights?” I said, “Well, if you're no longer together, just withdraw the spousal sponsorship.” I imagine that's what he did, because a week later I got another email from her stating that she had been sexually assaulted by her husband on a date prior to her first email.

So clearly when she was in a position that there was going to be a removal order issued against her, we went from psychological abuse to sexual assault. That's an abuse of the system, and I'm afraid that might happen in these cases.

Just because someone says they've been a victim of domestic abuse, unless it's clearly evident, until you go to trial, you really don't know. Just as when someone says they're a refugee claimant, until they've had their hearing, we don't know if they really are a refugee.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Ms. Taub.

Thank you to all of you. All three of you are experienced counsel, and we appreciate you coming and raising the issues of conflict that we're going to have to look at.

Mr. Menegakis has some questions.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank all three of our witnesses for appearing before us today.

I feel compelled to say how insightful I've found the testimony of all three of you. This is obviously a very important study. It brings up some emotions in most human beings when we're dealing with abuse of women in particular and especially when people are attempting to use our immigration streams to promote their illicit intentions towards their spouses or spouses-to-be.

I'm going to start my questions with you, Madame Desloges, if I may.

Have you had women come to you to request assistance because they've been involved in a forced marriage situation?

4:55 p.m.

Lawyer, Chantal Desloges Professional Corporation, As an Individual

Chantal Desloges

Yes, I have. It happened to me one time. I was approached to do a sponsorship appeal. I was hired by a women and her family to do a sponsorship appeal, and the first time I met her alone and isolated from her family, she told me that she was being forced to do this, that she had not wanted to marry the person, and that she wanted to find some way to get out of it, but she couldn't let her family know.

That put me in a really difficult position obviously. As it ended up, I couldn't continue to act, because it put me in a conflict of interest against her husband. But I feel that if this had come up at an earlier time and if someone had spoken to her alone at a much earlier stage than that, she might not have come to that position. That's why I recommended earlier that at some point during the sponsorship process, somebody should speak to the woman and ask her certain probing questions about whether there is coercion or abuse involved.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

What steps do you tell someone to take and what advice do you give somebody who comes to you and says they're in a forced marriage situation? What avenues do you have?

5 p.m.

Lawyer, Chantal Desloges Professional Corporation, As an Individual

Chantal Desloges

If the person is the sponsor and is in Canada, the first thing I would do is tell them to go to the police. As I said earlier, people who are in Canada at least have the advantage of the protections we have here in Canada. The problem is if it's the foreign national, it's a much more difficult situation, because there could be family situations; they could be under threat from their own family or from the husband's family, and the police in their country might not be particularly helpful.

As lawyers, my two colleagues here can attest to the same thing: when you're representing both parties in the sponsorship application or in an appeal, that puts you in a conflict of interest. Then as counsel, you end up having to withdraw and you can't help either side.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you.

Ms. Taub, thank you for sharing the story of the case that you're dealing with. I'm wondering if you've ever encountered anybody involved in a polygamist relationship.

5 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Julie Taub

No, I have not. No. I know of them, but there's nothing I can do about it. I would just like to add to Chantal's presentation. I think interviews should be compulsory in all situations where a conditional residency would apply. I think they should be compulsory and I do think that the sponsor should be interviewed. If he is not able to make it to the visa office, then by telephone. There's no question. Because you really can't get the real situation on a piece of paper.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

I think I may know the answer to this question, but let me ask you this as a follow-up. Are those who face forced marriage situations aware of their rights with respect to forced marriage?

5 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Julie Taub

Aware of their rights in Canada?

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Yes.

5 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Julie Taub

I don't believe they're aware of their rights when they're overseas. Once they get here, I think they do become aware of their rights.

In the situation that Chantal just brought up, if, in fact, the woman is here and there's an appeal, and she's been coerced into a marriage, I would recommend that she go and retain another immigration lawyer and make a refugee claim. Being forced into a marriage, and then fearful to withdraw from that marriage because of repercussions from your own family, honour killings, which are not unknown, even in Canada.... I would recommend this girl go and use a list of other lawyers, go and make a refugee claim.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Something struck me when you were testifying. A very recent case, I believe, was in the Ottawa area, of a lady who sponsored her spouse to come over. He came over and within a short period of time he beat her up. He ended up staying in Canada. It's amazing that there is no way to just get rid of somebody.

5 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Julie Taub

He has beaten up the sponsoring spouse and yet he could stay in Canada?

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

And yet he could stay, yes. It was amazing.

5 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Julie Taub

He must have come in under the old system, when he was given automatic—

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

This is now, a number of months ago. It's not an old case. But it was front page on the newspaper....

5 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and former member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual

Julie Taub

He must have come in under the old system, when he would have been granted permanent resident status upon arriving in Canada.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON

Let me ask all three of you. You said you didn't, Ms. Taub—but have you, Ms. Desloges or Ms. Neufeld, dealt with a polygamist relationship situation?

5 p.m.

Representative, Canadian Council for Refugees

Heather Neufeld

No, I haven't.

5 p.m.

Lawyer, Chantal Desloges Professional Corporation, As an Individual

Chantal Desloges

Yes, on a couple of different occasions. The one that stands out in my mind is a situation where a man had two wives. The original wife was sponsorable, which isn't a problem. He had children with the second wife and one of the children was very ill. It was a Canadian-born child. I was in the unique position of having to request, on humanitarian grounds, that the second wife be permitted to stay in Canada for the benefit of the child.

I'll be frank with you, I don't think there's anything you can do about polygamy. It's legal in a lot of different countries. I don't think the immigration system really has the tools to be able to address anything to do with that situation. I've racked my brains over it personally because I'm not a fan of the practice myself, but I really don't think there's anything in the immigration system that can be done about it.