Evidence of meeting #33 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was province.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Acting Director General, International and Intergovernmental Relations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
But I'd repeat that it's facilitative. It provides the opportunity to provinces should they choose to introduce such a residency requirement.
Conservative
The Acting Chair Conservative Devinder Shory
Thank you, Mr. Cash. Your time is up.
Mr. Chan, it's your turn now.
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses as well for their remarks to date.
I want to follow up a little bit from Mr. Cash's questions, but I might redirect this same line of questions to Mr. MacDonald. I know that there was obviously a consultation process, probably at the intergovernmental process, within CIC. Did a similar type of conversation, Mr. MacDonald, occur with MOF officials with your provincial counterparts in discussing a change to this particular legislation?
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
No. No conversation of such a nature took place.
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Okay.
Would it be unusual if you were contemplating changes to the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act that you would not first have a conversation with the provinces that might be affected by any proposed change?
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
There are two elements of the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act. One is with respect to the determination and calculation of amounts of transfers, and that would be subject to conversations led by the Minister of Finance or officials depending on what.... For example, we have routine conversations with our provincial counterparts on equalization. There are technical conversations that occur on allocations.
For the two elements of the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act that apply to conditionality—the minimum residency requirement—that is actually in statute. The carrying on of it is set to the Minister of Employment and Social Development, not the Minister of Finance. It's the Minister of Employment and Social Development who takes any recommendations to the Governor in Council. Similarly, with respect to the enforcement of conditions for the CHT that relate to the Canada Health Act, those are the responsibility of the Minister of Health.
So to the extent that there are proposals about those, it would be to—
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
I follow.
I want to get back to some of your earlier comments when you were dealing with the funding per province. You broke down the rough allocation of the $12.582 billion in fiscal 2014-15 to each of the provinces. Is that done on a per capita basis on a straight line across for all of the provinces and territories?
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
Yes, since 2007-08 for the Canada social transfer, and since 2014-15 this year for the Canada health transfer....
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
So the Canada social transfer does not take into account... For example, the number of refugee claimants is disproportionately larger for certain provinces such as Ontario, which has approximately 54% to 55% of claimants who would be potentially drawing upon the Canada social transfer. So in part some provinces may be slightly underfunded based upon this straight-line model. Would that be a fair characterization?
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
No, because, to respond to your question, the allocation is equal per capita and the reason that is so is the Canada social transfer provides funding for a broad variety of things.
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
There are three major areas.
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
I was just trying to understand whether certain provinces, particularly those that have a disproportionately larger claim on social benefits, certain social programs like social assistance, are disproportionately affected because we have a straight-line distribution.
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
The second attribute of the design of the Canada social transfer is its flexibility, its recognition of the flexibility to provide social programs. It's reflected right in the statute that it's the purpose of the transfer. So you see that in the design of the notional allocations. The notional allocations are not binding upon provinces to spend in each of those areas.
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
It's left to the provinces how to allocate across. It's a very general facilitative—
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Where I'm trying to get to is dealing with where this might potentially impact future CST payments to provinces. For example, is it the intention that the definition of population used in the allocation of CST entitlements to provinces and territories...would they be revised to subsequently exclude the classes of parties such as refugee claimants, asylum claimants, visitors, international students, and temporary foreign workers? Would the definition of population be potentially changed, which might affect the quantum of the CST transfer to provinces?
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
That's not in the bill. What I can say is there is no change to the equal per capita allocation. We take the data on population counts from Statistics Canada and we use that as the basis for our equal per capita allocation. That does not change in the amendments proposed in this bill.
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
I want to turn back to Mr. de Vlieger. Actually, either one of you can answer this question.
Have there been any situations where a minimum residency prohibition has ever been exercised by a particular province, which has led to the federal government reducing the amount of the Canada social transfer?
Conservative
Conservative
The Acting Chair Conservative Devinder Shory
It's my apology. I sat on the chair for the first time so I didn't know your five minutes were up.
We'll move on to Mr. Leung.
Conservative
Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us.
I just want to follow up on the question that was asked earlier about the Canada social transfer payments, about the timing of it. You indicate in your opening speech that you're the chief to Canada health transfer and Canada social transfer, and also the northern policy group in the federal-provincial government. Could you just tell us how long the Canada health transfer and the Canada social transfer have been in place? Were they both at the same time or separate times? Just roughly; you don't have to give me the exact date and year.
Chief, Canada Health Transfer (CHT)/Canada Social Transfer (CST) and Northern Policy , Department of Finance
The Canada health transfer and the Canada social transfer were both created in fiscal year 2004-05 out of the split of what was then the Canada health and social transfer. It was a combined transfer for all health and social purposes. In 2004-05 it was split to increase the transparency of what the government was supporting through health and through social. It made it clear. And then we could do the notional allocations and the CST.
Conservative
Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON
So the Canada health transfer is specifically for health-related things and the Canada social transfer is for all the other social programs?