Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Khan, can you speak to the experience of the post-border crossing period and how the composition of the refugee division might have changed in the wake of the raft of border crossings in Manitoba a couple of years ago? I'm wondering if the same thing might be happening in Quebec as they staff up. How are they staffing up?

[Bashir Khan]

The answer is four board members, two in Vancouver and I believe two in Calgary, if my memory serves. They were appointed to the board, and in the western region many of them come from a CBSA background. Unfortunately, some of these CBSA border officers are sometimes more executive-minded than the executive. Though I praise many of them, in the system as a whole we have an overrepresentation of civil servants.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

When it comes to the role of the tribunal to act as gatekeeper and also as decision-maker, is it a concern, maybe at least at the appeal division level, that the same professional has too many roles?

[Raoul Boulakia]

If what you're referencing is the complaints process, then, yes. I wouldn't want to be in that role. I wouldn't want to be the person who, on the one hand, has to be constantly showing that I'm respecting the independence of my board members, and then when I get a complaint, what am I supposed to do with it?

I think that is reflected in some of the strangeness of how these complaints get handled. I file a complaint and nothing happens with it for a really long time. I can't get any transparency on where it's going. Then I get a letter saying the complaint won't be decided because this person's not working here anymore. I don't know what that means—whether they took a lateral transfer to another civil service position, or if they had a contract that wasn't renewed.

That quiet way of dealing with things doesn't give us or the institution any lesson. Was something done wrong or not? If so, can we learn from it and improve? I think that might touch on the problem of how you say you're making a decision on this and you're going to uphold a valid complaint.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I think that's similar to what we've heard before.

With regard to the complaints process as well, we've heard different models of what might work in ensuring independence. The previous panel had some specific recommendations, and I'm just wondering if your views are whether an existing judicial oversight body could assume the role or whether something needs to be created.

Also, at the same time, would it be different for the GIC appointments versus the lower board members?

[Raoul Boulakia]

I think it would be preferable to have something new. I agree with what Ms. Roushan and Asiya commented on, and the proposal of the Refugee Lawyers Association as well, which was that there should be an external expert to deal with the complaint.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I need to cut you off there. Sorry. You might get your answer in one of the other questions.

Mr. Tilson, you have seven minutes.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Khan, you talked about mandatory continuing education for board members. What happens if they don't take it?

[Bashir Khan]

When lawyers do not do mandatory continuing education, they get suspended, so my point is we—

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Who suspends them?

[Bashir Khan]

This is interesting in the case of the RPD members. About 10% of RPD members are required to be members of a bar and continue their membership with the bar while serving on the board. Technically, a complaint could be lodged to their respective law society that they acted in a way a lawyer should not.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Sir, the mandatory continuing education would be by the board, presumably. The law society—at least the Upper Canada Law Society—to my knowledge has mandatory courses now, but we're talking about the board.

[Bashir Khan]

Yes, but those members of—

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I believe you said there should be mandatory continuing education. What happens if they say, “I don't need that”?

[Bashir Khan]

That's what I'm trying to say.

The members of the board who are members of the bar and are meant to continue with their law society membership as a condition of their appointment to the board will have to continue the mandatory training, because the law society requires it. If not, they would no longer be members of the bar, and the appointment was based on that criterion.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Sir, you don't have to be a lawyer to be a board member.

[Bashir Khan]

I agree; the other 90% don't have to be, so I'm saying—

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

What about that 90%?

[Bashir Khan]

Well, they need to be educated and they need to have competency tests.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Okay.

Ms. Desloges, what's your overall impression of the professional competency of the board members?

[Chantal Desloges]

I can say that it has improved a great deal compared to where it used to be.

There are still some problems. You still quite regularly get board members in hearings who don't know basic case law from the Federal Court outlining refugee 101 principles. You also sometimes get board members who don't follow their own guidelines and policies.

What concerns me even more—because you can teach that stuff—are the people who just obviously are not cut out to be in that chair. We've all met people like that. They look good on paper, but when you get them into the position, and they're just not suited.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Just like lawyers.

[Chantal Desloges]

It could be, yes. I've met lawyers who I wouldn't want to put in front of a court or a client, but they're great to do the paperwork.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Do you feel that the educational requirements for the various divisions of the board are sufficient? I think your comment was that there's an exam, and that's it.

[Chantal Desloges]

Right. It's not sufficient the way it is now.