Evidence of meeting #102 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Essentially they'll be adjudicators, or would they be a combination of maybe three members, an adjudicator member of the bar and then possibly a civilian or...?
Liberal
Lawyer, As an Individual
It shouldn't take more than two weeks for them to at least acknowledge that they have a complaint, and I don't see why investigating it should take more than two months, as Asiya mentioned. If it then goes to a disciplinary hearing, again that shouldn't take more than a couple of months.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
The statistics you indicated here offered acceptance rates. Is that available to all adjudicators, and is that available to all adjudicators in relation to a particular country?
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
It's published, not by the board itself, but by an advocacy group called the CCR. It is available. I know that the board has its own statistics, as Mr. Aterman indicated.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
The IRB indicated that they don't pay attention to those numbers. Do you think there's merit in having some analysis, at least on an ongoing annual basis, to have that kind of review and perhaps have additional training or additional support for members and to make decisions more public?
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
There's a correlation between matters that are being sent back by the Federal Court in which a member is specifically named, which is quite rare. The Federal Court, we've been informed, will only name particular members once they've seen a number of decisions in which the error is repeated.
There's a relationship between judges outing members and those same members having the lowest approval rate, so something is not right with these members. I certainly think that if the IRB investigated using the statistics on their own initiative, we could avoid many of the complaints and many of the issues that claimants—including, importantly, self-represented claimants—are facing.
Liberal
Lawyer, As an Individual
I agree with Asiya.
I think Mr. Aterman repeated the words that he doesn't want to interfere with the integrity of the judicial process by looking at those stats. He is interfering with it by not looking at those stats. The focus shouldn't just be on numbers, but on the administration of justice as a whole, and certainly that includes the rights of claimants.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
With regard to training, do you think the current roster of IRB adjudicators has appropriate training to do their jobs? That's in general terms, not specifically, based on your experience.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I would say absolutely not, although I'm not going to paint everybody with the same brush stroke. There are some wonderful members at the IRB, but I can tell you that right now I have an ongoing complaint against an individual who repeatedly blamed and asked my client why she stayed with her abuser. That shows to me that the member has no training in the gender guidelines, or maybe she received one or two days of CLE, continuing legal education, but she obviously doesn't understand the impact of violence on an individual.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
I'm afraid I need to end it there. We'll get more time. You'll get your answer, I'm sure.
Go ahead, Mr. Tilson.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate all your comments. They're excellent, and your suggestions are excellent.
Ms. Roushan, I appreciate your trying to devise or propose a system whereby you have an independent group deciding cases or deciding complaints. What about frivolous complaints, such as not liking the board member's decorum?
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
That is probably a frivolous complaint. Would that be dealt with by the integrity person and the chairman? Surely those frivolous complaints wouldn't go to this group of people that you're recommending.
Lawyer, As an Individual
The determination of what is frivolous is obviously a discretionary exercise on its own. I agree that those complaints should be weeded out, but I don't want the chairperson to decide if a complaint is frivolous.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
That's a good answer.
Is either of you aware of any board member who has been discharged and not just moved off to another area?
Lawyer, As an Individual
I think there might have been one or two for criminal behaviour. but as far as I know, there have been none for incompetence.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I understand that the process is that the interim chairman makes the decision. In the Sterlin case, for example, he said he should just have sensitivity training. I agree with you that he should have been fired for all those remarks, because they were terrible, but what are we to say? I happen to agree with you 100%. Then if the chairman says he should be discharged, I gather it goes to the minister. Is that what happens next? The chairman doesn't fire the board member; it goes to the minister and probably cabinet.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I think for the GIC appointments, it would. I don't think that's necessarily true for the public servants. I think that under the Financial Administration Act the board has the power to discipline and, I'm assuming, also fire members. I don't think that necessarily goes to the minister. Then the member would grieve it under the collective agreement, if he could.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
But I think this is part of the issue: it's not very clear. It's very opaque, this complaints process—
Conservative
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
—and how and where you end....