Citizenship and Immigration Committee on July 24th, 2018

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I appreciate the positive way you approach this issue, Mayor.

[Randy Hope]

There will be a need for transferring, to support Toronto and help us. I indicated to you that we have only 43 people per square kilometre. Municipal tax bases are short and we would need assistance during that time frame. If we can get these individuals into gainful employment that supports our local employers, that will give them a talent base that they have never had. I've seen some of the talent base that is actually being displayed—

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm afraid I need to cut you off, Your Worship. Sorry about that. Thank you very much.

Ms. Rempel, go ahead.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

While I have the floor, I want to put something on the record, because my colleague opposite looked slightly surprised when we quoted the Minister of Immigration. At our committee meeting in March, he stated, “I have used the word 'illegal' and I have used the word 'irregular' and I think both are accurate.” I look forward to reading the blues and some of the comments that he made and then applying them in the context of the comments that his minister made. But I digress.

Minister MacLeod, here we are. The reality is that, when we look at immigration, I don't think there's a single person in this room—and that's the beautiful thing about Canada—who asks “if” immigration; it's “how”. The reality is that, when we accept humanitarian immigration, it's not just about processing them at the border. It's not just about accepting them or signing off on a selection process from the UNHCR. It's about a long-term commitment to their well-being and their integration into the social and economic fabric of Canada. That costs money, and it takes planning. The reality is that provinces bear the burden of a lot of this work because of the scope of jurisdiction in terms of provision of education, health care, and subsidised housing. Part of the difficulty we've had as a committee has been with getting information from the government to understand the needs of this cohort, because we really don't have a sense of who is coming in.

Has the government given you any projections or information on what to expect in the next year and the needs associated with housing, language training, long-term integration, or social welfare payments? Do you have any of that information?

[Lisa MacLeod]

No. The federal government has not provided us with any indication of how many new refugee claimants Ontario will be receiving over the next 18 months, but we do know from the federal government's refugee claimant data that from January 2017 to May 2018 Ontario received 5,585 refugee claimants who made their claim in Quebec and then moved to Ontario. Between January and May 2018, 21.4% or 1,675 of all refugee claimants were children under the age of 15.

We have asked and we would like the federal government to be more specific in the information on the profile of claimants coming from the Quebec border, such as data on education and skills levels. This data can support service planning and costing in terms of language training, as well as other initiatives. It says we look at this. I have a very large ministry. One of the concerns we have, as the bills start to pile up, is where to take that money from.

I am responsible for women who are escaping trafficking or domestic violence. There is the Children's Aid Society, the youth justice system, social assistance, Ontario disability support, children with autism. That's what keeps me up at night. We can go down rabbit holes on terms and get into semantics, but I don't think that's the debate we should be having. We should be having a debate on how the federal government can fully fund the situation so we can make Ontario and our municipalities whole.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

In terms of your planning, you alluded to the fact that the government hasn't made a decision at this point to seek to apply the safe third country agreement to the entire Canadian border. I would assert that this has signalled a significant policy change. As the parliamentary secretary to ESDC stated, this is the new normal.

Ontario is in a severe deficit situation right now. You just talked about choices. What do those choices look like?

[Lisa MacLeod]

Our new government announced just last week that it would be doing line-by-line audits because there has been a major dispute between the previous administration and the financial accountability officer and the Auditor General. We could be facing a deficit anywhere between $12 billion and $20 billion, or maybe more. I don't know. In the next two months we will figure that out.

Running one of the largest government departments in the Province of Ontario, I can tell you that we will have to make choices. When we look at our budget, and the fact that we are in a significant deficit situation, the priorities in my ministry are, for example, children who are suffering from autism, the Children's Aid Society, and youth in care and custody. These are areas that we—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Look, we don't want to talk about choices. Those are tough things to talk about because there are finite resources. It's incumbent upon all of us to discuss how to prioritize and make choices and also treat people with dignity and compassion.

We have been asking for information about this for some time and asking the government to come up with a plan. What concerns me is that, rather than focusing on the how, and the data we need to get to the how, the last couple of weeks we have seen a lot of name-calling, specifically to you. I've heard the terms “alt-right” and “un-Canadian” used about you. It's not a laughing matter.

[Lisa MacLeod]

It's hard to be called something like that with—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Very briefly, is that going to help? We might have different political stripes here, but you don't have to like someone to work with them. Has that actually helped provincial relationships in planning for the 800 people who are about to be evicted from a college dormitory?

[Lisa MacLeod]

We do have an emerging issue. It is the crisis of where we're going to house 800 people in Toronto who right now are in two college dormitories.

Let me say this. I grew up in a small town called New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. I went to St. Francis Xavier. We had a saying there: You don't necessarily have to accept, but you must respect other people's points of view. What shocked me as a new minister a week into the job was the escalation of some rhetoric.

I was very pleased to have the opportunity on two occasions in the last week to speak with Minister Blair, and I am looking forward to a collaborative relationship with him and a change in tone and style.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That is, if we can find out what his job is. We are still working on that. We are on the hunt. We will keep you apprised of our efforts.

Thank you.

[Lisa MacLeod]

Thank you.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Chair, with the time I have left, I move:

That, in relation to the Committee's study of the impact of irregular crossing of Canada's southern border, the Committee report its findings to the House and request a government response to that report.

Mr. Chair, we haven't clarified the results of these meetings. Given that there are some fairly significant points that have come up over the last several hours of testimony, including that the government intends to provide additional payments—we don't know how much, when, or what that's projected on—I think it's important for us to summarize the findings of this committee, especially tabling the motion this morning on the cost.

I would ask, Mr. Chair, that this committee put together a formal report based on the testimony we have heard here. I think the role of this committee, even if we can't agree on how, should be to point out to the government that there are some gaps in information that are preventing the public, members of the media, and our provincial counterparts from coming up with policy and planning. I would argue and assert that it is our role as parliamentarians to help define and assess whether government expenditures are appropriate. I don't think we're there yet.

I would be very surprised if my Liberal colleagues would not support the tabling of a report in the House of Commons. To me, a vote against this is really a vote against having a plan. I would really like our committee to support tabling a plan in the House of Commons and asking the government to report its findings to the House as soon as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

There is a motion now on the floor, in relation to the committee's study on the impact of irregular crossing of Canada's southern border, that the committee report its findings to the House and request a government response. Is that a fair summary of it?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Mr. Whalen, go ahead.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I move to adjourn debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

There is a motion to adjourn debate on that motion. It's not debatable.

There are only three votes on the Conservative side, just to remind you. One of you can't vote. I'm not sure who; you decide.

(Motion agreed to)

That motion is passed, so we adjourn debate on that motion.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I believe I still have about 30 seconds left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

You have 12 seconds.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, would you have liked to see this committee provide a report on this particular issue, after appearing here and hearing all of these witnesses and their testimonies?

[Lisa MacLeod]

Yes. The witnesses have been outstanding. I would look forward to seeing that if it were made available.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

It's unfortunate, isn't it?

[Lisa MacLeod]

Yes, it's too bad.