Citizenship and Immigration Committee on July 24th, 2018

[Lisa MacLeod]

The federal Minister of Immigration used it in committee.

I'm not going to get into a debate on semantics. I'm simply here, as the minister responsible for immigration policy in the Province of Ontario, to let you know that there has been a significant strain on our resources to the tune of almost $200 million, and we're simply asking for support not only on shelter costs but on education costs and social welfare.

I'm also the minister responsible for social assistance in the Province of Ontario, and that is a $90-million cost.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I would submit to you that there are other words that can be used. I worry about a situation, with all due respect, that inflames a situation. I am from London, Ontario, and we had an incident you might have seen online that went viral.

These words create a certain perception of what are almost always very desperate people fleeing desperate circumstances.

As a matter of fact, in your presentation, you used the word “choices”. Today we heard from lawyers and experts in refugee law that the federal government is in fact legally obligated to ensure that asylum claimants get a hearing to determine if they meet the definition of a refugee. You call it a choice, but a legal obligation is a certain kind of choice.

I wonder, as the minister responsible for refugee issues in the Province of Ontario, whether you are familiar with the 1985 Singh decision of the Supreme Court and whether you recognize its binding legal implications.

[Lisa MacLeod]

I'm just going to point out that Ontario receives more immigrants and refugees than any other province in the country.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Minister, could you stick to the question? Can you answer the question?

[Lisa MacLeod]

We spend more than $110 million annually to welcome, settle, and integrate immigrants and refugees. In addition to that, we spend about $320 million on social assistance.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I appreciate that, Minister, and I don't mean to interrupt you, but there is limited time.

I guess the answer to that question is no.

Do you recognize the 1951 UN refugee convention, and the implications for federal and provincial governments, and furthermore, the fact that provincial governments must recognize and ensure respect for customary international law, and that this UN convention is an example of customary international law? Do you recognize that?

[Lisa MacLeod]

I am the minister responsible for immigration policy in the Province of Ontario—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

But there are implications for the province.

[Lisa MacLeod]

—and we have a growing $200-million bill—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The UN convention does—

[Lisa MacLeod]

—that we're asking the federal government to pay for.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

With all due respect, the UN convention does—

[Lisa MacLeod]

I've been around a long time, 12 years in fact, and I must say this. Just because they put the paper in front of you, it doesn't mean you have to read it.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

No, I come up with my own questions, I promise.

[Lisa MacLeod]

If you'd like to talk to me constructively, as Bill Blair has, then we could have a conversation about the cost build-up in my city of Ottawa, and the city of Toronto, in addition to what the welfare costs are for my ministry.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Minister, you're ignoring the question. That's why I'm engaging in the way I am. As far as international law goes, yes, the federal government is a signatory to the convention. It's the responsibility of the federal government to do those things, but it does confer certain obligations on the part of the provinces, namely the recognition of and the showing of respect for customary international law. Again, the UN convention is an example of that.

I have only a few minutes left, and I want to speak to the mayor as well.

This is my final question to you. You've attributed the rise in asylum claimants coming into Canada to Twitter. In 2017, 50,000 asylum claimants came to Canada. If it is Twitter, I wonder if social media holds water with respect to what's happened in France. In 2017, 100,000 individuals claimed asylum in that country. In 2017, again, 220,000 individuals claimed asylum in Germany. I wonder, is Twitter responsible for the number of asylum claims in those two countries or is it the usual factors: war, conflict, and poverty?

I think it's important. At least on that issue, let's be on the same page. If Twitter is causing these things, to me that's like talking about an alternative universe.

[Lisa MacLeod]

To be clear, I'm not the minister responsible for immigration in France; I'm the minister responsible for immigration policy and social assistance in the province of Ontario.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

But you have said things about what caused this.

[Lisa MacLeod]

The federal government has sole jurisdiction on Canada's borders, and it is your responsibility to identify and fully fund a solution to this most recent influx. What I'm doing here today is simply letting you know that it is costing my ministry about $200 million at a time when we need to deploy the precious little money we have to issues like children's aid societies and children and youth justice.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I look forward to your tabling the documents.

[Lisa MacLeod]

We look forward to sending them to you.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

We'll take a look at that. This is a challenge, not a crisis. Let's also put that on the record.

[Lisa MacLeod]

Eight hundred people are—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Mayor, thank you very much for appearing via video conference. I know you're a very busy man. I've seen you in Chatham as well. I know that your economy is firing on all cylinders. In 2008 you had 15.8% unemployment, if I'm not mistaken. Now it's down to 5.6% or 5.7%.

The way you described this challenge, it's an opportunity for you. That's what I'm hearing. You have a number of gaps as far as employment goes. You're looking for individuals to fill skill shortages in the community of Chatham-Kent. Could you speak to that, and to the opportunity that does in fact exist, from your point of view?

[Randy Hope]

We see this crisis, as everybody refers to it, as an opportunity for my community.

You're right that we did have a huge unemployment rate. We've been successful at generating new investments into our community. We've been supporting companies with the federal and provincial governments' support to help these companies grow.

Now we're in a situation where we have a low unemployment rate, and if companies want to expand, we don't have people. People are the key resources. When I talked to Mayor John Tory, I said that one of the important pieces of information we need is about the skill sets of these individuals.

When you were down here, Peter, I was showing you the job opportunities that are available. If we understood the skill sets of individuals and showed those skill sets to employers, we could almost do pre-interview processes and we could put people into gainful employment.