Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2018

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Mr. Clayton, perhaps you would like to comment on that as well.

[John Clayton]

I think the impacts of climate change, because of the nature of how they impact the world, are hard to predict in terms of where events will take place. Investments into the NGO community or into the structures that exist within government in terms of disaster risk reduction, preparedness in terms of being able to respond to these events, and minimizing the impacts when they do happen—those are the kinds of priorities in terms of Government of Canada or Global Affairs Canada initiatives that I think are good investments. Just due to the very wide nature in terms of how they would have to be done, however, they aren't a priority when it comes to the immediate needs of displaced populations when they happen. It's this idea of wondering how you can invest in prevention when the needs around actual responding to events that are taking place in the world right now are so overwhelming.

I don't think there's a way to mitigate climate change. It's about being prepared to be able to respond, and to be able to respond effectively, when it happens. I think those are the capacities that are lacking in a lot of these countries.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

In Canada we have various ways to resettle refugees. In your opinion, is there something we're doing correctly, perhaps, or could add more to? We have the government-assisted refugee program. We have the private sponsorship program and we have the blended visa. Is there anything we need to continue to work on in these three areas, or is there even another recommendation we can add in assisting with resettling refugees?

Maybe I can get your recommendations, starting with Anna and then Mr. Clayton.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Mr. Tabbara, your colleague would like a minute. I'm happy to give him a couple of extra minutes.

To the witnesses, you have about 30 seconds to answer that question.

[Anna Vogt]

I would just like to say that this isn't my area of expertise. Our colleague Brian Dyck can also respond to some of these questions. He's spoken to the committee before. He is currently in Ethiopia. He did emphasize the need for Canada to be involved globally in presenting resettlement and working globally to see how other countries can also be involved in resettlement.

I know that doesn't directly answer your question, but....

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I'm going to step in here with a question. I stepped out of the chair to do this.

Mr. Clayton, witnesses on our last panel were from Uganda. We heard it implied that one of the root causes to forced migration was hate that was spread by missionary churches in Africa aimed at LGBTQI communities.

I want to know the relationship between Samaritan's Purse Canada and Franklin Graham, the president of your international organization, and whether you stand by his remarks this summer when he, in addressing former president Jimmy Carter's comments on gay marriage, referred to the abomination of homosexuality, saying that Sodom and Gomorrah were God's punishment and that those deaths were brought about because of homosexuality.

[John Clayton]

Franklin Graham is the president of Samaritan's Purse Canada. I'm not familiar with the exact comments you're referring to. I don't believe our organization has anything to do with condoning that violence that's taking place in Uganda.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

This is what Franklin Graham said:

I have to respectfully disagree with [former President Jimmy Carter] on this one. He is absolutely wrong when he said Jesus would approve of gay marriage. Jesus didn't come to promote sin, He came to save us from sin. The Bible is very clear. God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexuality.

This would say that somehow, God killed people because they were gay.

Is that the belief of your organization?

[John Clayton]

I didn't come here prepared to comment on Franklin's comments earlier, and I don't believe, personally, that it's in any way reflective of biblical truth.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Mr. Oliphant, are you done?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Do you mind if I take my chair back?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Go ahead, Ms. Rempel.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Clayton, I want to expand upon your remarks with regard to the discrimination that might be faced within the UNHCR process. I want to start by acknowledging UNHCR has an important role to play in refugee resettlement, but one of the things we want to do is to also ensure that those processes are improved upon so that the world's most vulnerable are protected.

We know that internally displaced persons are some of the world's most vulnerable. Right now, in global resettlement programs from host countries that rely on the UNHCR for resettlement lists, there are difficulties for internally displaced persons accessing UNHCR resettlement.

I just wanted to give you a bit of time to expand. Perhaps you can provide the committee or point us to some quantitative data or evidence around the discrimination aspect that you mentioned, some of the reforms that Canada could advocate for to strengthen processes so that vulnerable minority groups that are internally displaced have equitable or priority access to resettlement programs. Could you also talk about how domestic practices and domestic policies within Canada could reflect that reality?

[John Clayton]

Okay. First, I don't come with quantitative information. I have anecdotal information from our operations in various locations. Specifically, as I was addressing the Yazidi situation, we've been very involved in that response since the ISIS overthrow of Mosul and the events that took place in those days. It became evident that those biases exist in the dominant cultures of the areas where the UNHCR operates. I don't think we judge them. Sometimes these things are just inherent in terms of the world views and the ideas that people have when they approach different people groups. When you're from a dominant people group and you're dealing with minority groups that you've had no relationship with, or that you've been taught bad things about, it's very difficult for you to be objective or to hold onto those lofty humanitarian principles.

I understand Canadian representatives assisted in the referral process that took place in that particular location. I'm not aware of other locations where that happens, but anywhere there is a minority group in the midst of a dominant group like that, there is the possibility of those problems existing, so I think—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Sorry to interrupt. We've had the UNHCR in front of us, and over the course of this Parliament, we've also had witnesses—for example, members of the LGBTI community—talk about difficulties accessing resettlement programs, given the process. We have two stories: We have “discrimination and difficulties happen”, and we have the UN saying, “Nothing to see here, folks.”

I'm just wondering how, as a service provider—and I'll look at the Mennonite Central Committee too—we break that impasse. If we want the system to function properly, if we want social licence and people to accept that the system is equitable, how do we break that impasse? How do we actually push for reform given the UN is a very bureaucratic organization?

What do you suggest for us, especially as somebody who is tired of having this fight every time we have a displaced persons group and then the UNHCR in front of this committee?

[John Clayton]

There is one simple way. If there is accountability, there will be full transparency. If it's ever questioned, there would be a welcome to come and investigate the objectivity and the—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

What does accountability mean? What does that mean in terms of a specific mechanism, in terms of a recommendation for this committee?

[John Clayton]

I would say the starting point would be their not saying, “There is no problem.” It would open the door to saying, “Please come and examine how we are upholding these humanitarian principles.” If anyone says they don't have a problem, and you're a primary supporter or funder of their operations, they ought to welcome the chance to demonstrate their transparency, their adherence and their ability to deliver.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Do you mean something like a Canadian initiative, or a Canadian-initiated request for a review of process conducted by an independent body?

[John Clayton]

Yes.

I don't know what it would look like but I know there are good minds that would be able to think through how you would conduct a monitoring visit or an evaluation of the fulfillment of those principles.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

To your knowledge, has there been anything like that done? Would we find any arm's-length groups or countries that have conducted an audit of this process to date, if our committee were to look at something like that for best practice?

[John Clayton]

I can't speak to that.

It was something that we talked about in our office and discussed internally. We thought there should be no hiding from that if it was ever asked for. I think the response indicates that maybe we do need to look at something different here.