Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Jan. 30th, 2019

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm going to call this meeting to order the 141st meeting of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

We are beginning our study of settlement services across Canada, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2). This is the first meeting.

As is our normal practice, whenever we can, we invite officials from the government to present an overview to get context for the other witnesses that we'll be hearing over the next several weeks as we look at settlement services offered to newcomers in Canada.

Mr. Manicom, thank you and your whole team for joining us.

We have 10 minutes or so for you to give—

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Manicom begins, I have a point of order arising out of the email on the estimates sent by the clerk and the publication of the in camera proceedings held by the committee on Monday. We talked about the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship and the Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction being invited to appear before the committee in relation to the study of the supplementary estimates.

My concern, Mr. Chairman, is with the two ministers appearing for one hour and the members of the department of those two ministers appearing for a second hour. I seem to recall that we tried that once before. I think Minister Goodale was here. I think Minister Blair was here when he was first appointed.

If each minister takes 10 minutes to speak, which is normally the custom—and I think they should—and makes introductory comments about the estimates that affect them, then if we're lucky, we would have maybe a first round of questions, which is hardly fair to the members of the committee.

The second issue, Mr. Chairman, is that I believe we should have a meeting with one minister for an hour, another meeting with another minister for an hour, and a meeting with each of the two officials. Each minister would appear alone for one hour, and then, as I say, they'd have an opportunity to make their seven- or 10-minute statements. I can't remember what you allow. Either way, we'd be lucky to get some questions in.

We have to consider the officials from both areas. We would have a pretty big table. We'd have the IRCC, the RCMP, the CBSA and possibly others. It would make it difficult, Mr. Chairman, to narrow down the questions that we have for their respective areas of responsibility.

We have two related issues here, Mr. Chairman, that we would like to question the ministers on.

The first is securing the border, the issues of Roxham Road and the areas in Manitoba and British Columbia that fall under Minister Blair. We now know there have been over 40,000 illegal border crossers in the last two years, and that would definitely require some detailed questions on the supplementary estimates.

We also have the larger issues surrounding immigration in general, which fall under Minister Hussen. We have questions for him on a whole group of items, including backlogs, parents and grandparents, and on compensating provinces for increased asylum claims. The list is a long one. These are the estimates, after all. Pretty well any topic related to the department is fair game.

The final issue, which relates to the email sent by the clerk—I don't know whether I have it here, so I'll have to go by memory—is that if you look at the calendar setting forth the time frame we have to do the estimates, I think we sit for one week in March. In February I think there's a week that we're not sitting. So time's awasting, Mr. Chairman.

I believe that you and the clerk should set out two two-hour meetings, one for each minister and their respective officials, to go over these quite complicated areas that we would like to have an opportunity to question them on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you for that. Because it was a point of order, and we would not be able to receive it as a motion to change what the committee decided, we'll take it under advisement. You will be able to bring a motion forward when it is your turn—not on a point of order, but when you have speaking turn. You could bring a motion to do that.

Right now, the committee has invited two ministers to have a meeting on supplementary estimates (B). The custom of this committee is to have a two-hour meeting on the estimates. That is was what was decided. Of course, once you have the floor, you are certainly allowed to bring a motion on an item with respect to the business of the meeting. If it's not with respect to the business of the current meeting, you're invited to give notice of motion, and then we could deal with it within 48 hours.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Chairman, this was a point of order on something that was released by the clerk, clarifying something. I think I have every right to speak on a point of order. It was not a motion. It's a point of order, and I have every right to speak on it now, particularly when I look at the calendar before me. We sit next week. We're off the following week. We don't sit on the 18th, because that's Family Day, so there's only one meeting that week. We sit the following week, and then for the next two weeks, we're not sitting. If you don't do it before then, you'll be out of time. I have every right to do it now.

This wasn't a notice of motion. I'm quite aware of the procedure of notice of motion, and you are too. I have every right to say this is a point of order. This should be ruled on by you—or commented on by you—with respect to setting a timeframe for these ministers. The ministers may not be available, and if you leave it, we may never hear from them.

I have every right to speak on a point of order at this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

You do. The point of order has been heard, and I will refrain from ruling on it. The clerk and I have set a meeting for Monday to discuss the agenda, which I told you I would do. That will be considered when the meeting is held, and we will look at one member's opinion. However, the committee will decide its own agenda. If you're not happy with the schedule we come up with, you'll be entitled to bring a motion at that point.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

At the very least, Mr. Chairman, I believe you—or if not you, the clerk—should inquire from the ministers when they're available. Otherwise, this whole procedure will never take place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

We have already proposed three potential meeting days to the ministers. We are waiting to hear back from them.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I look forward to Monday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Okay.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Is that going to be an in camera proceeding?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Monday is a general meeting.

I'm meeting with the clerk on Monday to try to come up with a calendar, and then we'll update the committee in a public meeting on Monday.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Are you saying it's going to be a public meeting on Monday?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

It is. We have an open meeting on Monday.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

It's not going to be in camera?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

We have witnesses on Monday, so it's a regular meeting.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

All right. How much time are you going to allow to discuss the issue of supplementary estimates?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I will report to the committee—as I often do at committee meetings—about the schedule. You are then able to say that it would not meet your needs or your requirements as a committee. You may bring a motion at that point.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm telling you right now that it doesn't meet with my needs. You've scheduled witnesses to come on Monday, and you're not going to allow any time for this issue to be discussed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I always report back to the committee when we have a scheduling change. I usually take five minutes out of a meeting to explain those things. That would be my usual way of doing it on Monday. If you would like to move a motion, you're entitled to move a motion; however, we have heard your point of order, and we are having a meeting on Monday. We'll discuss the calendar over the next several weeks and figure out what is possible with respect to—

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

You're not going to rule on the point of order I have raised that we have two separate meetings for each minister?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I don't believe that is a point of order to change what was decided at the committee on Monday.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

No, that's why I raised it, Mr. Chairman. I've read the minutes of the meeting. I've looked at the email from the clerk, and that was not discussed. According to the minutes, what was said at the meeting was that the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship and the Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction would be invited to appear before the committee in relation to the study of the supplementary estimates. That has nothing to do with the issue I have raised. We have had two ministers come to this committee before, and it hasn't worked.

It wasn't expressed in these minutes. It wasn't expressed in the email of the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I will repeat: we have one member of the committee with one concern. That may be shared by other committee members. It may not be shared. We can test that by a vote.

I would rule it out of order today, because we don't have a notice of motion on it.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

When, on Monday, are you going to deal with this issue? First thing?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

We'll present it at the meeting on Monday, depending on when the witnesses—