Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 6th, 2019

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Perhaps I can comment. In the case example that I used before, I didn't use the phrase “a false claim” when I was questioning the minister. What I said was that if somebody who's come from a safe country, where they're not facing threats, is here in Canada on a temporary visa, and they are advised by an immigration consultant to make a refugee claim, would there be accountability for the immigration consultant if he or she provided that advice? Although I didn't use the words “false claim”, the situation I've described is, by definition, a false claim, because there's someone from a safe country who's claiming refugee status, who is not in fact vulnerable. In that case, the minister said there wasn't clarity around whether or not that would apply.

I think it underlines just how open-ended this whole situation is. More clarity from the minister would have been helpful.

Can I just clarify, with you, a separate issue? On the issue of the definition of legal advice, am I correct in understanding that the current legal framework involves a situation where a person is giving advice for a fee? Under the new legislation someone would still potentially be covered, even if they are not providing advice for a fee, if they're providing it for free to somebody. Is that correct?

[Natasha Kim]

The definition under section 91 of IRPA would not change. Who is allowed to provide that advice would change, obviously, once the new college is fully established. I don't have it in front of me. I believe it says “for consideration”, so it doesn't speak to fees, necessarily, but where there's some kind of exchange required.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If a not-for-profit is helping somebody and not charging them at all, it doesn't have to worry about registering, under this legislation.

[Natasha Kim]

I would add there's an infinite number of fact scenarios. If a non-profit is receiving funding in some way to provide those services, then that would be for consideration.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. You're unfortunately out of time.

Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thanks very much.

I'm going to give this a shot again. Who will monitor if the representative is approved by the college? Is it IRCC at the time an application is received? Is it only when there's a complaint brought forward, then a discovery is made that the representative for that applicant is actually not approved by the college?

[Lori MacDonald]

May I have that one more time? Sorry, Madam Chair, I'm not sure I'm following.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

With this new college, what I'm wondering is this: Who will actually monitor if the representative who submitted an application on behalf of someone is actually approved by the college to do this work? Is it IRCC at the time the application is being submitted, or is it when the applicant has a complaint and brings it forward to the college?

[Natasha Kim]

Madam Chair, our existing application kits and forms require people to declare when they are using a representative of some kind. There's a form called the “use of a representative” form, which they have to fill out. If they're providing the name of a consultant, they have to include their membership number. The assumption is that they would be authorized, and that the register that would be established under the new act would allow that to be searched, so that they could identify whether or not their representative is authorized.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

IRCC will check the number and make sure that they are on the list. If it's found that the representative is not approved by the college and is not on that list, what happens to that application? They could be a ghost consultant or somebody who does not have the necessary requirements, and so on.

[Lori MacDonald]

I'll take a stab at it. That's a bit ahead of us down the road with respect to program direction to the officers. We're still processing all of those pieces in terms of ensuring that the list of consultants is established and available and searchable for people to use, and then what that means in terms of tying it into the application process.

Harpreet, do you have anything?

[Dr. Harpreet Kochhar, Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

If I may add, Madam Chair, one key component with this change would be that when we are processing those clients, in addition to looking at the representative, whether they are on the list or not, we will have the ability to communicate with the clients themselves and get that information.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I appreciate that, but the client may not know, and that is my point. I'm not quite sure how the college would deal with this, to be frank, because I think a lot of people might even send in made-up numbers. Who's to say unscrupulous consultants may not even make up numbers for their clients. They'd have no way of knowing on the applications.

Who's going to enforce this?

On the appointment of the board members, will the existing ICCRC members be qualified and be able to sit on this new college, or are they prevented from being part of this new college?

[Lori MacDonald]

On the first part of your question on processing, I'll ask Dr. Kochhar to respond. It's not the college that does the processing, it's IRCC, so it's always hard to give a definitive answer on scenarios. However, when the application is going through a process, we check those numbers, so Dr. Kochhar's response is where we would connect with the client to say we see that the number's not right, or there's some concern with the application. There are always challenges, of course, in being able to connect with clients if they've not given their contact information because they're using a consultant, but those are the kinds of things we work through in processing.

[Dr. Harpreet Kochhar]

Just clarifying that, one of the key components is, right now if you are being represented by the consultant, and if you have filled out the form, that's one way. We have a way to look at it from the list. As I said, calling the client.... Finally, we also have a quality control process where we go through a definite number of these applications, and we go back to confirm if these are from the right clients or not.

One of the key components we are trying to put in is that right now we are only allowed to call the consultant if there is a representative on the list, but now we are making the change whereby we will be able to reach the client as well as the consultant so we can reconfirm that.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On the board members?

[Natasha Kim]

I'm happy to answer that question.

Under the statute, the composition of the board would be set by the minister, who would have the authority to appoint the public interest directors, but also appoint up to a majority of public interest directors, so elected members would still be part of the board.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Yes, I understand the process. Would existing ICCRC members, this current board, be able to become board members from the college, either by appointment from the minister or as an elected member from its licensee membership?

[Natasha Kim]

They would be able to become an elected member if elected by the membership to represent the members on the board.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I see.

I don't think the act tells us how many people are on this board. A minimum of seven, it says. Does the ministry have any indication as to how big this board is?

[Natasha Kim]

Yes, if you look at the transitional provisions in the bill, they set out what the initial board composition will be as the transition phase goes on and the college is fully set up. It would be a nine-member board with five members who are public interest directors appointed by the minister, and four elected members. That's in the scenario where the ICCRC would vote to continue in the organization.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

What's to say that the existing members who can be elected to be on this board, whom people complained about at our study, would be able to be re-elected? That's what happened. Somehow they got to be there and they're doing this and now they can run again and be part of this new college.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Reply with a 10-second answer; be very brief.

[Natasha Kim]

Under the initial board composition, the public interest directors would form a majority and be a very strong voice on that board.

[Lori MacDonald]

There's a minister's observer on the board as well, a public servant who raises issues to the minister.