Evidence of meeting #56 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultant.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair. Thanks to both the witnesses for appearing before the committee.
My first question is to both the witnesses. Both of you could provide your input. The issue of immigration consultants keeps coming back to this committee. Reports are written, the government takes action, but we keep ending up back here again. We can tinker around the edges, but I see a real issue with the domestic ghost consultants. They don't fall under the purview of the ICCRC, and we heard earlier in our study that the CBSA only has the resources to go after the most egregious offenders, so we have this wide open door for those ghost agents.
It seems to me that there are few options on the table. Can I have your input? I would like to get recommendations and input from you both on that. Should we give the ICCRC more authority to allow them to go after those non-registered consultants?
The second part too is that given what we have heard about how they are functioning, do we replace the self-regulation model with a government regulation? Ms. Drolet, you touched on that, too. Here in this study, some suggestions that came from the Canadian Bar Association restricted the field only to immigration lawyers registered with the law society.
What do you both think of those options, or do you have some better options?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association
With regard to your first question around whether ICCRC should have more authority to investigate ghost consultants, I think the evidence is clear that the ICCRC has failed to properly investigate and enforce their own codes of professional and ethical standards. I would therefore be reluctant to widen the pool of people who they would then be responsible for investigating and regulating.
As I said before, I think that a solution is to replace the self-governing model currently in place with a department, with a government model, in order to restore public confidence, frankly.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Sorry, but what do you recommend for the non-registered consultants, which CBSA doesn't have the resources to deal with?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association
CBSA does not currently have the resources. However, resources should be expanded so that these complaints can be filed, or if the government begins a regime of regulating immigration consultants, resources should be allocated to the department to conduct those investigations.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Okay. What about the other part, the Canadian Bar Association's recommendations?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association
With regard to restricting the practice to immigration lawyers, in an ideal world, everyone would have access to justice and would have the ability to afford services. I think immigration consultants can play a role in certain types of immigration applications.
We may want to consider looking at what scope of practice immigration consultants should reasonably be permitted to be able to provide services under. Perhaps things like appearing before the IRB should be eliminated, because that does require an understanding of the law and legal processes, which is not part of the education of consultants.
4:10 p.m.
Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
You know, I recall the same issue raised when it came [Technical difficulty--Editor] and foreign students in Canada. I remember saying for five years, almost 10 years, that the solution is that every school needs a designated institution number. If you're not on that list of designated schools, you can't get a study permit that gives you access to things like a post-grad work permit. Finally, we have a system in place just for that. The same model can be rolled out for certain long-term immigration services from your long-term residence permit. Unless you have a designated representative number on your application, you may not be able to get that particular immigration service done.
Yes, it will drive traffic to designated representatives, but guess what? That's how you get rid of the ghosts. You build into the system an integrity component, and the user will pay for that integrity examination. The representative literally puts their number on the line with every case. You hive off to the private sector that enforcement mechanism. Ghosts cannot access those particular services because they don't have a number.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
What about the suggestion of the Canadian Bar Association?
4:10 p.m.
Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
With due respect, I have a difficult time with that one, on many levels. I also have a concern that if the federal level of government were to regulate the immigration consultants, there would be a temptation for overlap between the immigration authorities, CBSA, RCMP, and that regulatory authority. You'd need some significant protection there if that regulatory oversight body were to have credibility in the industry.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you.
We heard from one of the witnesses during this study that section 91 of the IRPA makes it illegal to represent or advise a person on immigration matters for compensation unless they are a lawyer or a registered consultant. It could be viewed as prohibiting settlement service agencies from helping clients with immigration matters. Although they don't charge for the service, they are compensated by their employers.
Do you share this concern, and if so, what action would you recommend, Ms. Drolet?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association
I think it would be useful to look at the mandate of the settlement agencies, which is to provide information and referral services. It's not to provide representation.
That said, as I said before, I think non-profit organizations operate in good faith. They are there to serve the public in their best interests. I do think that individuals who are part of a non-profit organization who are not charging fees should be allowed to continue to represent individuals.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you very much. I'd like to yield the floor to Ms. Kwan.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much to my colleague, Mr. Tilson, for yielding the floor to me.
Mr. Chair, I'd like to move the following motion at this time:
That pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), that the Committee immediately undertake a study of land arrivals at Canada's southern border, including: the impact of current realities at the border on safety and security of both refugees and Canadian society; the effective management of refugee claims at the border, within the context of Canada's international human rights obligations; and how to ensure an efficient and effective refugee determination process. That this study should be comprised of no less than five meetings; that IRCC department officials be in attendance for at least one of the meetings; that CBSA officials be in attendance for at least one of the meetings; and that RCMP officials be in attendance for at least one of the meetings; that the study be concluded and that the Committee report its findings to the House prior to June 9, 2017; and that Pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response thereto.
Mr. Chair, Canadians are deeply concerned and dismayed about President Trump's appalling immigration ban. I share their concerns, and I strongly believe that a ban against individuals based on race, religion, or country of birth implemented by our closest neighbour cannot be tolerated by Canada. This deeply misguided policy not only sends a chill of intolerance around the world, but it emboldens racist sentiments and contributes to the unleashing of overt acts of racism. Canada has always been a shelter for those who need it, and in these unprecedented times, it is critically important that we establish a clear path for Canada to step in and do our part.
I believe that all committee members are well aware of the current situation within our border communities. People are risking life and limb to come to Canada. Why? The answer is that they do not feel the U.S. is a safe haven for them. I ask committee members to put themselves in the shoes of those asylum seekers in the U.S. for a moment. Imagine if the president of the country that you are trying to seek refuge in says you are a bad person because of where your country of origin is. How would you feel? Would you feel that you would be treated fairly? I suspect that if we were honest with ourselves, we would say no.
On January 11, 2017, Canadians saw stories about Seidu Mohammed, a 24-year-old refugee who nearly died making the dangerous journey from the U.S. to Canada, crossing into Manitoba on Christmas Eve. Born in Ghana, he fled from there out of fear for his life due to his sexual orientation. He had hoped to rebuild his life in the United States. As committee members may already know, homosexuality is illegal in Ghana. It is punished under a section of criminal code titled, “Unnatural Carnal Knowledge”. A 2012 U.S. department human rights report also pointed to widespread discrimination, police harassment, extortion attempts, as well as citing several instances of violent mob-style assaults being carried out against suspected homosexuals.
Seidu Mohammed made an asylum claim in the U.S. after arriving in San Diego in 2015. He then spent a year in a detention centre. While in the detention centre, he lacked access to legal counsel, and lacked the freedom to gather materials to support his case. As the Harvard report I will speak to soon found, this is all too common.
Ultimately, his claim was rejected. He then headed north, meeting another Ghanaian man in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The men took a bus from there to Grand Forks, North Dakota, and then a $400 cab ride took them to a spot near the border. The men then embarked on the most dangerous part of their trip. They walked for at least seven hours, at times through waist-deep snow in -18° weather, trying to cross into Canada and were poorly equipped for the conditions. After failed attempts at hitchhiking for hours, a truck stopped and called 911. Mr. Mohammed ended up having all of his fingers amputated as a result of the extreme frostbite he suffered during the walk across the border. Despite that, he said, “The journey was worth it. I'm happy here. To go back, I lose my life”.
On February 8, 2017, we heard the heart-wrenching story of the two-year-old making the trip from Minnesota into Manitoba as part of a group of 20 individuals. It was reported that, in the -20° weather, the tired and ill-equipped child said to his mother, “Mom, I want to die, you can go in the Canada. I want to die in the snow, you can go, mom, in the Canada.”
On February 22, 2017, the story of Naimo Ahmed was told by the CBC. Ahmed, 23, is part of a minority group originally from southern Somalia. She was sent to be married in July, but community members were against the union because her would-be husband was not a member of her group. On the day of her wedding, a group of armed individuals came to her mother's house and murdered her mother, husband, and other members of her family. Ahmed spent her wedding day, and many more following that, fleeing and hoping to rebuild her life in safety.
After travelling from Somalia to Equador, Colombia, and Costa Rica, she eventually made her way to Texas, where she was detained and was transported to Minneapolis to await her asylum hearing. Fearing the Trump administration's discriminatory policies toward people like her from Somalia, Ahmed believed she had no choice but to make the trip to Canada instead. She stated:
I am black. I am Somali. I am a Muslim—the three things the president doesn't like.... To him, I am a terrorist. But I am not. I don't want to harm anyone; that's the last thing I want to do. All I am looking for is protection.
These are just some of the stories of people who feel they have no choice but to make the journey from the U.S. to Canada because they don't feel they have a chance at a fair hearing to obtain asylum and safety. In addition to the political and social upheaval that continues in Somalia, which has cost countless Somalis to flea. Somalia is once again facing a severe drought. For those whose country of origin is Somalia, the UN has estimated that some 363,000 children are acutely malnourished, with 270,000 more at risk in 2017. They further stated that there is only a two-month window to avert a drought catastrophe.
We need to be very clear when we're talking about the individuals abandoning claims in the United States to come to Canada. They have already fled serious and possibly life-threatening situations in the hope that they could find safety. With the current situation in the U.S., their fears that they do not have access to a fair and just set of procedures are not unfounded.
On January 30, 2017, Amnesty International wrote an open letter to Minister Hussen, as well as the Prime Minister and Minister Freeland, urging the Canadian government to immediately suspend the destination of the United States as a safe third country. In that letter, Amnesty International quite clearly states:
What has become clear is that all of the developments involve dramatic measures that blatantly violate numerous international refugee and human rights legal obligations, including under the 1951 Refugee Convention and its 1967 Protocol, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention against Torture. Most directly, crucial principles with respect to non-discrimination, non-refoulement, arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, fair trials and the rights of children have already been infringed.
We are strongly of the view that in this context Canada cannot wait to see how things continue to develop in the days and weeks to come.
While the original discriminatory executive orders this letter responded to were struck down by the courts, Amnesty International had the foresight to know it was unlikely that those would be the only ones attempted. They stated, “There is every reason to believe there may be further changes, including through additional Executive Orders.”
We know that some of the original discriminatory executive orders have remained in force, that additional anti-immigrant executive orders have been signed, and that a second travel ban has been attempted. Over this time period, we also know that irregular border crossings from the U.S. into Canada have sharply increased. Amnesty International recently undertook an observational fact-finding mission at the Canada-U.S. border in Manitoba. Two researchers were sent to the border crossings to interview refugee claimants who had recently made the dangerous journey in frigid temperatures in order to bypass the safe third country agreement and be eligible to make an asylum claim in Canada.
During these interviews, Amnesty researchers found the following key observations.
First, the notion of abandoned dreams of freedom in the United States. Upon arriving in the U.S., individuals interviewed said their original feelings of optimism about finding freedom and safety there were replaced by feelings of vulnerability and lack of protection. This was not just through the direct policy actions undertaken by the Trump administration, but by the change in public atmosphere ushered in by the rhetoric and climate he had created.
Second was with regard to concerns about arbitrary immigration actions. Individuals interviewed from Somalia explained that while they made their asylum claim prior to the Trump administration, their hearings had been cancelled without explanation, and in some cases not rescheduled. They were unable to find any reassurance, including from their legal counsel, in the cases where they could obtain it, that their claims would be heard. This led to feelings of fear that additional actions could further impact their ability to have their claims heard.
Third is immigration detention. Widespread and unjustified immigration detention has been well documented in the United States for decades, and the Trump administration has expanded it. Several of the individuals interviewed explained that they were detained upon arrival and throughout the duration of their asylum claim process. As explained by the Harvard report, individuals under this detention are far less likely to have access to legal counsel or consultation, and are also far less likely to be able to make a successful asylum claim as a result.
It was clear to the Amnesty researchers that individuals, including children, were detained in the United States who simply would not have been detained in Canada, and that this was in clear violation of international legal standards and obligations governing the detention of refugees and migrants.
Fourth, with respect to claims being rejected, as explained at length by the Harvard report, well-founded asylum claims are often similarly rejected in the United States. This is, in large part, due to the obstacles faced by claimants held in detention in preparing their cases. In a troubling example of this, an individual interviewed by Amnesty made an asylum claim in the U.S. based on his sexual orientation. He was held in detention, and his claim was rejected. He was able to raise funds to obtain a bond to be released from detention, and then made a dangerous trip, crossing irregularly into Canada. That individual's claim was recently heard by the Immigration and Refugee Board, and was so clear that he immediately received a positive decision on his claim at the completion of the hearing.
Mr. Chair, had that individual not made a dangerous trip to Canada, he would have been deported and his life would have been put in real danger. With the safe third country agreement in effect, Canada would have been complicit in that man's peril.
Fifth was on increased immigration raids. Many of the individuals interviewed spoke of recently experiencing a significant increase in immigration raids, and this was most frequently Somali asylum seekers. They spoke of friends and neighbours being suddenly arrested and detained when reporting for regular immigration appointments, as well as raids occurring at workplaces and apartment complexes.
This was considered a key factor for individuals in making the decisions to undertake the dangerous trip to Canada. There were many media reports, in February alone, that pointed to significant raids taking place, and what appeared to be a shift away from targeting only those with criminal records, to targeting anyone. Many of the reports spoke to the fear that is now gripping immigrant communities that perhaps the Trump administration will move forward with his, or at least once promised, “deportation force”.
Sixth, regarding exploitation and danger at the border, due to the nature of the journey for asylum claimants being able to make a claim in Canada because of the safe third country agreement, asylum claimants are not only vulnerable to the harsh weather conditions, but are also vulnerable to exploitation from so-called consultants and agents who charge significant sums of money to get them near the border. Amnesty concluded this fact-finding mission by once again advocating that Canada suspend the safe third country agreement. At minimum, they call for invoking article 10 of the agreement, which allows for the agreement to be suspended for three months.
Mr. Chair, Amnesty International is concerned enough with the current state of asylum seekers crossing the border that they felt obligated to get people on the ground, to try to better understand what is happening on the ground. Despite what the Minister of Immigration seems to try to claim, that nothing has changed, it is important to know that many people, including experts, disagree with that sentiment. Once more, it's becoming evident that the people in the asylum system know what it feels like. To them on the ground, it's as clear as day that the climate has changed in the U.S. and that is a big part of the motivation behind their journey.
For those who claim there has been no change, let's look at some of the official figures. For January and February alone, a total of 1,134 individuals were intercepted by the RCMP at irregular crossings. If this trend continues, we could expect over 6,800 people to make these types of asylum claims in 2017. To put that in context, for all of 2016 in those regions, a total of 2,464 individuals were apprehended by the RCMP. That's a pace for almost tripling the number of asylum seekers crossing irregularly at the Canada-U.S. border.
Many of the media reports, such as the ones I previously cited, detail the number of hours asylum seekers have been trekking through the snow and the frigid temperatures of often around -20°. Despite these conditions, and despite many of these people being ill-prepared to deal with the conditions, the journey is being undertaken at even great risk. That means the pace could increase, and you could see even higher levels of asylum seekers crossing in this fashion than the current trend suggests.
It is important, however, to keep these numbers in the context of the overall immigration figures and historical records. Refugee numbers this year are approximately 13% of our overall immigration levels plan. In the past Canada has resettled higher numbers than currently targeted. The most notable example would be the successful resettlement of the boat people from Vietnam, and this will remain the case even with these elevated asylum claims. This is not a disaster or an unmanageable situation. It is simply a situation that requires management.
Many individuals and organizations have voiced concerns that once the weather gets nicer more people will attempt the journey. While the weather may be warming up and the snow melting, the next season in the Prairies might be more dangerous than the winter. In the Prairies, with spring thaw comes the flood season. I would imagine that many would-be asylum seekers are unfamiliar with the risks associated with travelling through Prairie fields during this time. If we do nothing, we risk being caught flat-footed in the event a real problem arises.
We need to properly prepare for the impact of Trump's discriminatory immigration policies. Everyone wants the situation to be handled properly, and I think this includes committee members from all sides. As well, resettlement organizations servicing those communities have been stretched thin by the big promises of the government around increased refugee targets, but the inadequate funding of services.
My office spoke with Greg Janzen, the reeve of Emerson, Manitoba, and he tells us that crossings no longer come just on weekend nights. They're starting to occur on a nightly basis. Temporary shelter for individuals is also becoming a problem. He notes that Emerson is a town of just over 600 people, and they've had over 300 people cross into town since February 3. The CBSA centre is full. The local Salvation Army is full. He's concerned that if these trends continue or increase they would need to set up something like a tent city for people. They're now doing cross-border preparations with the neighbouring American towns for first responders to be ready and equipped to do water rescues. They're concerned it will be difficult because the asylum crossers are always coming over at night.
It is unfair, Mr. Chair, for Canadians in border communities to bear the burden of this alone. Community members are being wakened in the middle of the night by asylum seekers looking for shelter or aid. Media reports have shown residents of Emerson, Manitoba, engaging in some truly inspiring work to help these asylum seekers in their time of need. I think all Canadians should be proud of that. But at the same time, this is a lot to ask of people. If we fully anticipate that this situation will continue, shouldn't we try to figure out how best to mitigate the impact and manage the situation? After all, isn't it just common sense?
The RCMP needs to be adequately resourced to respond to this increased activity, and so does the CBSA. The Immigration and Refugee Board also needs to be adequately funded to hear and make determinations on these cases in a timely manner, especially given the statutory time frames and the outstanding legacy claims.
Mario Dion, IRB chair, stated in the 2016-17 report on plans and priorities, part III:
The IRB had reallocated available internal funding to reduce the backlog of legacy cases from 32,000 to 6,500 since the coming into force of the new refugee determination system. In 2016–17, the Board’s ability to reallocate funding internally will be severely limited, particularly if the Board is faced with sustained increases in intake at the RPD. As a result, commitments made by the Board in relation to refugee protection claims that are not subject to statutory time frames, such as the remaining 6,500 legacy claims, will have to be revisited unless additional temporary funding is made available.
I was truly disappointed when the minister appeared before us here recently and said that there would be no additional funds allocated to the IRB to allow them to process the legacy claims. All the efficiencies in the world can't make up for a lack of funding. If the IRB is spending more of its time and resources dealing with the time-limited, imposed new cases stemming from these asylum seekers, the lives of those with legacy claims continue to remain in limbo. Once more, budget 2017 does not provide additional resources to the IRB to clear these legacy cases.
If we don't prepare for the possibility of additional pressure being put on the IRB, then we are knowingly putting in question the integrity of our immigration and refugee system. That's shameful. In addition, the current situation can have far-reaching impacts in the larger context, if we don't adequately respond to what's happening.
In my view, it is no coincidence that the spike in asylum claims of this nature have increased since the Trump administration came into power. The anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies attempted thus far have had an impact on vulnerable immigrant communities and have also emboldened some troubling fringe voices in our communities to attempt to incite fear and hatred of immigrants.
On March 25, in my riding, I was speaking at a rally for the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. The rally was interrupted by members of the Soldiers of Odin, who attempted to disrupt the event and intimidate people who attended. A smoke bomb was set off and several people were arrested.
As we recently saw with motion M-103, the ability for certain online groups to start misinformation campaigns based on fearmongering are more pervasive than ever. We are already seeing articles and Internet campaigns disparaging these asylum seekers as somehow queue-jumping over other refugees or even somehow that they are having to queue-jump over family or economic-class immigrants.
The longer the government refuses to acknowledge anything is happening, the worse this gets. It undermines the confidence Canadians will have in our immigration system. While the increase in populist and nationalist rhetoric, often with anti-immigrant undertones, has been less prevalent here in Canada than in many other nations, we are not immune to it. The best way to prevent those divisive messages from taking root is to put in work to ensure Canadians have the utmost faith in our systems. We ignore these issues at our own peril.
Additionally, as we saw with the controversy surrounding M-103 and have seen even more clearly in other western countries, there is a growing amount of fearmongering and growth in fringe voices promoting rather alarming anti-immigration positions. Canada has thus far been one of the least impacted by that trend, in my opinion. However, we can't assume that will continue if we, as government, aren't continuing to show Canadians that our immigration and refugee system is among the best in the world and can absolutely be trusted by Canadians.
Canadians need to believe that our system has world-class integrity. If we ignore these trends and they continue, we risk undermining the current trust in our system that most Canadians have.
To be sure, inland refugee claims are nothing new, as members of this committee know. These individuals aren't queue-jumping, they are making an inland application. They aren't somehow evading the law, as the reports state, because they are apprehended by the RCMP and turned over to the CBSA, as per standard procedure. What is different is that they are forced to risk life and limb to get to safety at unsanctioned border crossings.
Canadians expect better from their government. Our international partners expect more of us regarding our international and humanitarian obligations. Canada is a signatory on the 1951 Refugee Convention, its 1967 protocol, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the Convention against Torture. We have international obligations under these conventions around the treatment of and protections for asylum seekers.
While the safe third country agreement remains in effect, it is the opinion of many groups that Canada is failing to meet these obligations. The agreement forces asylum seekers to undertake the dangerous trip to Canada. People are not crossing because it's fun; they're crossing because they don't have any other choice.
The minister has attempted to say that suspending the safe third country agreement would create disorder. I could not disagree more with that statement. There is nothing orderly about individuals losing fingers to frostbite after spending seven hours walking through waist-deep snow in farmers' fields. There's nothing orderly about Canadians being awakened in the middle of the night to an asylum seeker looking for emergency shelter. There is nothing orderly about a toddler telling his mother to go on and let him die in the snow. None of this is normal; none of this is orderly.
What is disorderly is the current situation, the current do-nothing approach. I've said it for months now, but the longer we do nothing in the face of the changing realities on the ground brought about by the Trump administration in regard to their discriminatory anti-immigration measures, the more complicit we are. At this point, I'm stuck wondering what it will finally take to spur action. Does someone have to die making this trip for us to do something? We need to do the work before tragedy occurs, not after.
Let's hear from groups like Amnesty International, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, the Muslim Association of Canada, the authors of the Harvard report, the 200 law students who spearheaded the research-a-thon, the NGOs on the ground, the RCMP, CBSA, and those who are directly impacted. Let's get a handle on what's happening on the ground. Let's understand why the numbers are increasing. Let's understand what these border communities need to do better to handle these situations.
Ipsos Reid CEO Darrell Bricker explained Canadians' views quite succinctly when he said:
Regardless of your views of immigration in general, there’s an overall perspective among Canadians that rules must make sense, and they must be followed.
I ask the members of this committee to support my motion so that we can ensure that the rules in place do in fact make sense to meet the needs of current realities and for Canada to take action that matches the words of the Prime Minister #WelcomeToCanada.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To my colleagues in this room, oftentimes I think that when we get into parliamentary committees we can get into this sort of routine of witness testimony and what we've put together in committee business, but then something happens and that something can precipitate some very important work in parliamentary committees. I think that is at the heart of this motion today, which is why I speak in favour of it.
We're at a confluence of issues right now when it comes to refugee policy in Canada. We've seen the intake of tens of thousands of Syrian refugees in a very short period of time. We've seen a fundamental change to the immigration levels with regard to the intake of refugees. We are seeing a humanitarian crisis with regard to the migrant crisis in the Middle East, and there are some very weighty and serious questions related to Canada's role, which are not easy questions. They're easy questions to politicize, but they're not easy questions to answer.
These include things like how many refugees should Canada take in each year in terms of how much it costs us to actually provide proper integration programming to give people language skills and affordable housing so that the Canadian public can have long-term social licence to sustain high levels of refugees in such a way that refugees have a successful experience when they come here to Canada? That's not an easy question to answer. It's one that has been fastidiously avoided in this government over the last 18 months.
Now we have the issue of increased illegal border crossings, specifically along the Manitoba-U.S. border as well as at the Quebec-Vermont border. My colleague Ms. Kwan extrapolated the number as being 6,800 this year based on current figures. We have no idea what that's going to look like, because we've already heard claims of basically gang-related smuggling groups starting to organize. We don't know if that's going to mean human trafficking. We actually don't know anything.
Yet when we ask what the government's approach has been to this.... For me, this is not about partisanship. It's just that “wait and see” is not going to cut it on this issue for several reasons. First of all, if we are going to see an increased level of migrants coming through this border, what is the government going to do to support them when they get here? Are they part of the immigration levels? Have they already been thought about in that context? How does this impact processing for other streams of immigration claims? What does that mean for wait times and the whole issue of the safe third country agreement?
We have Ms. Kwan arguing very passionately and groups of people across the country arguing very passionately that we should suspend that, yet we have other people who are arguing or saying there are legal ways to come into the country. The illegal land-crossing component is a loophole or an oversight in that agreement. Perhaps we should seek, with the United States, to try to close that, because it's not in the best interests of our country. Who are we allowing into the country and under what circumstances? What does this mean for families along the border areas that are having refugees and illegal border-crossers coming and knocking on their doors?
Why hasn't the Prime Minister or the immigration minister called this for what it is? It is illegal and it's unsafe. Why hasn't the government said it is unsafe to do this, and not to do this? Why are we seeing romanticized pictures of people crossing fields in -30° weather? These are all issues that should be of import to a parliamentary committee.
I also want to look at some statistical factual data. My colleague has talked about the fact that many of these border crossings could be precipitated by the Trump administration. I'd like to see some quantitative evidence. Is the American system still working? Even though we've seen a change in the administration in the U.S., does the asylum claim system still function at an arm's-length, proper perspective? What do Canadian legal experts think of this? Is there evidence to show it is not working such that the safe third country agreement should be suspended, or should we be looking at an alternative approach there?
How much of an increase in resources does the RCMP or the CBSA need to deal with this? What sort of intelligence is the CBSA hearing in terms of how many more people we expect to see over the next year? Are we doing anything to deter this? How are we managing this? What sort of resources are we providing to Canadian families who are having to deal with this issue? What about the safety issues? I remember reading an article that was, I think, in the Winnipeg Free Press that talked about families who had been very surprised and very frightened to have people knocking at their doors in the middle of the night.
My colleague talks about it being very disorderly. I agree with her. This is not the right way to be doing things.
We have some serious, fundamentally difficult questions to discuss in terms of how, whether, and why Canada should maintain its high processing levels of refugee claims. That is exacerbated by the fact that we are seeing hundreds, and most likely thousands, of illegal border crossings in this country this year.
I just don't understand why the government has taken this “go along to get along” approach, because you're seeing colleagues from two very different ends of the political spectrum say we have a problem here and the problem is that we can't just go along to get along. We have to answer some tough questions in order for Canadians to avoid the populist rhetoric that Ms. Kwan mentioned. I agree with her.
The way we avoid that is by tackling these issues head-on, not by talking points in the House of Commons on this particular issue that say, “There's nothing to see here, folks.”
I just implore you. This committee can do something that resembles work by voting in favour of this motion. If the committee votes in favour of this, we will have done something that will be of benefit to this country.
By providing some recommendations across all party lines for the government to look at, I think Ms. Kwan has done a very good job of writing a very non-partisan, very open-ended motion that doesn't put the government in any sort of derogatory light. I really don't see any reason that the government would not support this motion.
With that, my comments are complete. I would certainly implore my colleagues to vote in favour of this motion.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Mr. Chairman, I was going to make some comments, but I understand that bells are about to ring. Therefore, I too would ask for a vote.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj
Okay. I'm calling a vote—
Sorry, Ms. Dzerowicz, you're on the speaking list.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
Mr. Chair, as we have witnesses before us, I move that debate be now adjourned.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I request a recorded vote.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)