Evidence of meeting #56 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultant.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Kurland  Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
Natalie Drolet  Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association
Hafeeza Bassirullah  Director of Education, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
Lawrence Barker  Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
Christopher Daw  Chair of the Board of Directors, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council

3:55 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

I strongly agree, sir. There should be a little light that goes on. In the example of the “Sunny” Wang case, I'm not sure why it took three years to bring the consultant to justice, but somewhere in the computer system there's a device that should signal that a particular licence-holder is taking carriage of in excess of 200 cases, 500 cases, or 3,000 cases. How can they ethically supervise every single case? That kind of heads-up should trigger an immediate audit by the regulatory authority.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

But there's no process to do that now. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

There is provincially. When it comes to consultants, I don't think the regulatory authority has access to the data. IRCC has access. They should begin to share and liaise on the ethical conduct side.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

As far as enforcement is concerned, how effective has the regulator been?

3:55 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

There's goodwill, but I haven't seen the coffins line up.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Okay. We've come to an end.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Ms. Kwan, you have seven minutes, please.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation.

Ms. Drolet, regarding the impact on applicants of the work of their consultants, in some cases there are people who rely on unregistered or unlicensed consultants. To that end, if an application is submitted by someone who is not licensed and there is misinformation or even misrepresentation in the application, would you agree that in those scenarios, the government should accept those applications but do something about the consultants—who were not licensed and were ghost consultants in that instance—without impacting the applicants?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association

Natalie Drolet

Yes. I would agree that this scenario occurs quite frequently and that IRCC should continue processing those applications if there has been misrepresentation or errors by the consultant, regardless of whether they are a ghost consultant or a registered consultant. I would then suggest that IRCC refer those cases to the CBSA for enforcement.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Should the government, for example, establish a system whereby if you are not a licensed consultant you actually cannot provide services?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association

Natalie Drolet

Yes. Currently, the categories of individuals who can represent clients include lawyers and registered immigration consultants, so to a degree those ghost consultants are already excluded. There is an exception for people who work for non-profit organizations and don't receive a fee to represent individuals. Non-profit organizations have good faith. They have mandates to serve the public, and it would make sense for them to be able to continue to represent individuals, regardless of not being registered.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Then it would be for non-profits who are doing the good work they are doing, and for those who are registered, whether they are lawyers or consultants. If you are not, though, then you would not be able to practise immigration consulting work.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association

Natalie Drolet

Yes. I would agree with that.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Kurland, what are your thoughts on that?

4 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

I think we can also drill down, as our common province, British Columbia, does in the case of new drivers. We have a graduated authority. You have an N on your car for a new driver and an L on your car for a learner, until you graduate to being full-fledged driver. The same possibly can be held for consultants.

After all, I do not see the consultants as having the competence, the day after they obtain membership, to conduct a full-blown refugee hearing. Maybe they can handle the study permit application, and possibly a work permit application, but not a complex permanent resident application and certainly not an oral hearing at the Immigration and Refugee Board. Thought may be given to reducing the potential for abuse and error by providing a gradual entry to full service if you are a consultant.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

I guess another way to put it is to say that under a certain licence, there are certain categories within the spectrum of immigration work that you can engage in. If you have not reached those levels, you would not be able to practise in that sense.

4 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

4 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Related to that, one of the big issues, of course, is the high cost and the fee associated with it. Would you agree that the government should bring in a system of a fee schedule for certain kinds of work? For example, if you're going to fill out form XYZ, here's the fee schedule that's associated with it. Do we need some sort of approach with respect to that, so we can prevent applicants from being taken for a ride with exorbitant fees?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association

Natalie Drolet

I think there would be challenges with that proposal because not every applicant or application is the same. There may be complexities in one versus another, so I think it would be a bit of a challenge to come up with a fee schedule. There isn't really a precedent for that currently, I would think.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

No. There isn't currently, but I think about legal aid work, for example. Legal aid comes with a fee schedule. There are certain steps and procedures that you go through in the court system and there's a fee schedule that applies, so I'm thinking it would be a similar system to that effect.

4 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

Yes. It's creative. It is possible to come up with resource gathering policies, but they may be politically difficult. For example, we can adopt a practice in immigration of some other countries, western democratic countries, where we say this consultant, this lawyer, is entitled to access preferred service, faster service, but for a processing fee. The processing fee goes, and there's your money to enforce and prevent abuse, so it's a tough trade.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

That wasn't really what I was talking about, though, because then you're talking about allowing for a system where people can jump the queue if they can pay more. I'm talking about bringing some fairness into the cost of the consulting work for the applicant, because they're very onerous, the fees for the applicants. What sort of fair system can we put in place? That's what I was trying to get at.

Let me just turn to a different question because I know in B.C.—I'm very proud of it in my own community in Vancouver—there is a safe house that's been established for live-in care workers, for example. People get abandoned on the roadside. It could be because of a bad consultant; it could be because of the bad employer, so that house was established.

Would you say that that's an important process that we should set up across the country?

4:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Staff Lawyer, West Coast Domestic Workers' Association

Natalie Drolet

I think it's a remedy to the current problem. I think issuing open work permits would alleviate the problem of live-in caregivers being left homeless after leaving an abusive employer.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Quickly, Mr. Kurland....

4:05 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

Yes. I just rebound with the voluntary disclosure program. That really would fix a lot of cases that you've described.