Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 1st, 2017

[David Nurse]

Thank you for the question.

You're correct that the law societies generally do have the ability to take immediate action. I guess what I see as one of the distinctions between the law societies and ICCRC is that they are generally closer to the ground. Because they are provincially regulated, they seem to be able to keep a closer eye on the occupation ban than ICCRC is.

I've had very few instances in which I've actually made a complaint to ICCRC and spoken to their officers. I did have one instance when I was with Nova Scotia Immigration that was quite troubling. There was an issue. There was an ICCRC consultant who had an arrest warrant in Canada. There were a number of charges against the consultant, who was living outside Canada. My recollection is that the ICCRC investigator more or less said that the person was innocent until proven guilty. They could continue to advertise as ICCRC-licensed on their website and could continue to work until they came back to Canada to face these charges.

That was four or five years ago. I don't know how that ultimately was resolved, but generally, if you see a lawyer charged with any serious matter, particularly one warranting arrest, there is normally an immediate suspension and review. Then, they may be allowed to resume practice under conditions. I guess I'm not seeing the same news stories that you would be looking for about ICCRC taking serious action. I guess I see too much of what I would call substandard work out there in the community to have any degree of confidence in ICCRC effectively meeting its mandate.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Do you have any recommendations to the government, Mr. Nurse, as to what the ICCRC should be doing to address the allegations that have been made by many witnesses in these hearings?

[David Nurse]

I have a couple of things. Obviously, as the gentlemen with the union said, more enforcement would be good, but I think it's also perhaps time for the government to go back to first principles. Why is the government continuing to try to regulate this occupation? Are there alternatives? For example, has it looked at how accessible legal services are now in immigration versus 20 years ago?

Is there really a need, and could the need be met in a different way? For example, could the federal government work with the law societies and the provinces to create immigration paralegal certification that would still allow consultants to work and provide services to a wide range of clients in a variety of languages but bring that work under the supervision of lawyers, who are themselves under the supervision of their law societies?

I think that if I were going to encourage anything it would be to absolutely go back to the drawing board, because this is not working.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Somebody from the Canadian Bar Association came and told us to get rid of the consultants. My suspicion is that the consultants are kind of like paralegals, who are regulated much more than consultants, from what I understand.

I guess the question is, what's your position? Some people say, “I can't afford an immigration lawyer, but I might be able to afford a paralegal, or I might be able to afford an immigration consultant.”

[David Nurse]

First of all, I'm not sure that I necessarily believe that price issue has been tested in 2017. I look at the number of lawyers practising immigration law in Nova Scotia, for example, now versus 15 years ago. You might have had one guy who was sort of an oddity 15 years ago. Now, we have 20 or 25 members in a variety of different practices, some with big firms....

Sorry. Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

No, please continue.

[David Nurse]

Just to finalize that, lawyers are doing more than they ever did to provide access to justice. Immigration fees are often offered on a flat-fee basis. There's an obligation to consider the means of the applicant, and also to look at pro bono work. I don't know if the federal government has asked that question. Is there a continuing need for this broad class of immigration consultants to be working in Canada and overseas, or could that work be taken up by the existing cadre of Canadian immigration lawyers, perhaps with additional support?

I don't think those fundamental questions are being asked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

We're finished?

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

The seven minutes is up.

Ms. Kwan, seven minutes please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for their presentations.

Before I go to my questions, I'd like to just move this motion first, if I may, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to move that the committee return to the debate that was adjourned on April 10, 2017, on my motion, which reads as follows:

That pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), that the Committee immediately undertake a study of land arrivals at Canada's southern border, including: the impact of current realities at the border on safety and security of both refugees and Canadian society; the effective management of refugee claims at the border, within the context of Canada's international human rights obligations; and how to ensure an efficient and effective refugee determination process. That this study should be comprised of no less than five meetings; that IRCC department officials be in attendance for at least one of the meetings, that CBSA officials be in attendance for at least one of the meetings, and [that]...RCMP officials be in attendance for at least one of the meetings; that the study be [conducted] and that the Committee report its findings to the House prior to June 9, 2017; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response thereto.

Mr. Chair, as you'll recall from our last meeting, I moved the motion to this effect, we began discussion of it, and Ms. Dzerowicz moved a motion to adjourn the debate. I think it is critical that we move forward with this study. I'd like to get the committee to make a decision, one way or the other, whether or not we're going to study this work.

Mr. Chair, I know it's a non-debatable motion, and I would hope that we can resume debate and get on with this.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you.

As committee members are most likely aware, the motion to resume debate is a dilatory motion. It is not debatable or amendable. As such, it's put to an immediate vote.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

A recorded vote, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

A recorded vote.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Erica Pereira]

The motion that we have before us is that the committee resume debate on the motion moved on April 10, 2017.

(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Ms. Kwan, you have six minutes and 50 seconds.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for that. It's unfortunate that the motion didn't pass. We need to get on with the work. Maybe the members of the government side will realize that sometime very soon.

With that in mind, I would like to turn my questions to the witnesses here on the issue of consultants. I'd like to ask the witnesses this question—a very basic question. Should consultants be self-regulated? We've heard a whole host of problems from people, from other witnesses, so I just have a basic question on that. A simple yes or no answer would suffice.

I'd just like to get a bit of rundown from everybody. Maybe we can start with Mr. McMichael and Mr. Ottey.

[Jason McMichael]

No, I don't believe they should be self-regulated.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Kriek.

[Jacobus Kriek]

I believe they should be self-regulated. I'm a regulated Canadian immigration consultant. I've been practising for 15 years.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you. I'm just going to get a quick rundown from everybody.

We'll go to the people on the video conference.

Mr. Nurse.

[David Nurse]

No, I do not believe that would be prudent at this time.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

And last but not least, Mr. Eustaquio.

[José Eustaquio]

My answer too would be no.